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Thread: dilberryhoundog's crazy conglomeration page

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    dilberryhoundog is offline Senior Member
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    dilberryhoundog's crazy conglomeration

    Well here it is, I've decide to make a journal.

    But....
    As I don't count calories or macro's or do any specific training protocols, I don't track my weight anymore and have never got a blood panel. I don't really have much progress to report, so it won't be a journal as such.

    Instead....
    I'm going to do a corkboard type deal, where I post up all the crazy idea's that I have come up with during my journey becoming more like a caveman. Hence the title, this will be a conglomeration of all my crazy idea's and a place where if your brave enough or maybe crazy enough you might like to read a few and formulate a few of your own.

    A few details before I begin.

    These are my idea's only, they are not fact, even if it sounds like I'm writing with utter conviction, they are only from what I have read or observed my self. The pages I read and the things I see may not always be right, but know this, I am not trying to deceive.

    My nutty ideas will be in blue (or another color) if any discussion springs up regarding one of these crazy idea's it will be in normal forum color black. This is so when I am an old grandad (hopefully very old but young at heart ) I can skim through and find the ideas quickly and show my grandkids just how crazy Poppy dil was.

    Also I will probably cut and paste a few pre existing and not yet existing "my crazy idea's" from the general forums. The reason for this is 2 fold. The first is most of my most craziest ideas are already documented, but they are on page 68 of a thread that hasn't been open for months. The second is when I'm in the midst of a titanic battle of words and idea's with one of the resident MDA antagonists (don't worry too much about it, I'm one myself) my most craziest idea's pop out. So I may double post them here as well. By the way MDA regular antagonist Chocotaco is fantastic to get in to a "titanic battle" with. Most of these ideas following, will have popped up from antagonizing his crazy ideas.

    Anyway have fun reading.
    A little primal gem - My Success Story
    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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    dilberryhoundog is offline Senior Member
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    Yeah in my time lurking these boards I've seen a massive amount of discussion on what foods grok ate. It is one of the most common questions on this board:
    Is this food primal?

    mark even has a section of his blog that runs a particular food through the ringer to see if it pops out as primal fare. But I rarely, if ever, see the following question asked.

    Is this food primal? and How did grok eat it?

    This I see alot with people following the blueprint:
    They decide for themselves all the foods that they believe grok ate or simulating that he ate, for example... bulletproof coffee, is it primal? honey is it good or bad?. They go to great lengths to get this right (as can be seen by the great debates that rage on the forums), then they straight away go and apply this to a CW eating plan, that's been failing (to varying degrees) the same way for 30+ years, here's a few CW eating plans that come to mind:

    *You must eat 500 less calories than your average daily calorie expenditure every day to lose weight.
    *You must only eat 50-100 grams of carbs (can insert any other macro here) a day to lose weight.
    *You must eat only 3 meals a day to lose weight.
    *You must eat 30 minutes after excersise to gain muscle
    *You must IF every other day to lose weight.
    *I could go on


    What perplexes me is the sever lack of debate on "The way we eat primal foods and its effects on us, from an evolutionary point of view" meaning are our bodies expecting us to provide food to it in ways that differ from how the majority of people actually do provide food to it? my gut feeling is yes. Grok being a hunter gather would've had great variance in all aspects of his/her diet. Nothing would've been regimented or consistent. I'll elaborate with a list:

    *His daily intake of calories would've fluctuated wildly as he went through daily feasts and famines, from missed kills, having to do other tasks that day instead of foraging like traveling to new grounds , season food variations in his particular area, Luck, etc etc.

    *His daily macro ratios would've fluctuated wildly, some influences might have been; bringing down a big game animal and having to eat it (as you mentioned), coming across a grove of fruiting trees and staying a few days to feast on them, finding a big ground tuber, eating a range of small foods in a day like finding some insects (protein) then some berries (carbs).

    *His meal times would've fluctuated greatly, he could've ate just once in a day from a big game animal to hundereds of times if he was foraging while on the move. he would've ate any time of the day that an opportunity arose (yep that includes breakfast).

    Many other factors would've come into the great variance in groks diet but I'll leave it with that as this reply is getting long. So in summary while I think it is important to decide for yourself what grok ate and how you can apply that to modern day foods and their effect on the body through "gene expression" (as mark puts it). I believe it is equally important to decide for your self how grok ate and how you can apply that to a modern day lifestyle and how it also effects the way your body reacts through "gene expression". Some food for thought. hehe
    Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 09-01-2013 at 07:08 AM.
    A little primal gem - My Success Story
    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

  3. #3
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    dilberryhoundog is offline Senior Member
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    The carb wars are raging on the forums right now. Here is a post I addressed to Derpamix after he and knifegill had a little disagreement on the optimal daily carb intake (hehe).



    Never before have I understood this symbol in relation to our bodies as I do now, after 6 months of hanging around this site.

    All tho both of you will protest other wise, knifegill and co. eats yin and you derp and co. eat yang, you will both "do good" on your diets because of the little opposing colored circle in each half, IE you get "enough" of the opposite. There are so many ways this symbol applies to our body, Carbs and fats are just one. All the opposing paradigms on MDA are fantastic to get the whole picture of health and for your part in that, I thank you.

    In your posts above you mention "stress" hormones and how they are a really bad thing to have coursing through our veins, I would like to offer up my point of view to you.

    In the regulation of metabolism we have 2 opposing hormones, one is additive the other is subtractive (these are the "stress" hormones your referring too). Insulin adds stuff to cells, Glucagon subtracts stuff from cells. Insulin builds the body, Glucagon breaks down the body. The dance these 2 do is a magical thing and all you guys are missing it. Yes "breaking down the body" might seem a tad bad but it really isn't, it is only perception that "stress" hormones are bad. Glucagon in excess, without its opposite, rebuilding the body, your are right is very bad, as is Insulin without its opposite subtracting from the body (additive fat crisis (obesity) taking over the world anyone?).

    The Marks daily apple forums amazingly and perfectly illustrate this body balancing system. let me elaborate: MDA has 2 opposing Macro camps, one has carbs as its hero, the other has fat as its hero and both camps have protein as a neutral. Look inside the body, eating a pure source of one hero (carbs) will result in a perfect release of the additive hormone insulin, eat a pure source of the other hero (fat) and the body will release a perfect amount of the subtractive hormone glucagon. Eat a pure source of the neutral (protein) and the body releases an equal amount of both hormones. Fucking brilliant ain't it, who woulda thought the macro pendulum forces constantly swinging on the forums, pretty much perfectly represents the internal forces active in our bodies.

    Anyway you may have noticed my dealings on these forums I seem to jump from camp to camp, sometimes I'm in the carb camp sometimes I'm in the fat camp. Some days I eat high carbs, some days I eat high fat, some days I eat high protien. Some days I eat more than I should, some days I eat less than I should, some days I eat just the right amount. You might begin to see why I eat like this, when you understand the yin and yang of the body.

    There is a reason I chose to address this to you.

    note, when referring to insulin or glucagon as additive or subtractive hormones, I'm referring to insulin and associated hormones and glucagon and associated hormones.
    A little primal gem - My Success Story
    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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    Your yin and yang analogy was cool man, just letting you know I liked it.
    nihil

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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post

    In your posts above you mention "stress" hormones and how they are a really bad thing to have coursing through our veins, I would like to offer up my point of view to you.

    In the regulation of metabolism we have 2 opposing hormones, one is additive the other is subtractive (these are the "stress" hormones your referring too). Insulin adds stuff to cells, Glucagon subtracts stuff from cells. Insulin builds the body, Glucagon breaks down the body. The dance these 2 do is a magical thing and all you guys are missing it. Yes "breaking down the body" might seem a tad bad but it really isn't, it is only perception that "stress" hormones are bad. Glucagon in excess, without its opposite, rebuilding the body, your are right is very bad, as is Insulin without its opposite subtracting from the body (additive fat crisis (obesity) taking over the world anyone?).

    The Marks daily apple forums amazingly and perfectly illustrate this body balancing system. let me elaborate: MDA has 2 opposing Macro camps, one has carbs as its hero, the other has fat as its hero and both camps have protein as a neutral. Look inside the body, eating a pure source of one hero (carbs) will result in a perfect release of the additive hormone insulin, eat a pure source of the other hero (fat) and the body will release a perfect amount of the subtractive hormone glucagon. Eat a pure source of the neutral (protein) and the body releases an equal amount of both hormones. Fucking brilliant ain't it, who woulda thought the macro pendulum forces constantly swinging on the forums, pretty much perfectly represents the internal forces active in our bodies.

    Anyway you may have noticed my dealings on these forums I seem to jump from camp to camp, sometimes I'm in the carb camp sometimes I'm in the fat camp. Some days I eat high carbs, some days I eat high fat, some days I eat high protien. Some days I eat more than I should, some days I eat less than I should, some days I eat just the right amount. You might begin to see why I eat like this, when you understand the yin and yang of the body.

    There is a reason I chose to address this to you.

    note, when referring to insulin or glucagon as additive or subtractive hormones, I'm referring to insulin and associated hormones and glucagon and associated hormones.[/COLOR]
    Hi Dil

    Ok, I know about insulin and a little about glucagon. If you remember, I have type 1 diabetes. I have only passed out once from a low blood sugar and was injected with glucagon. I know I do not produce insulin and from what I understand type 1's can produce glucagon but it's just in smaller amounts because it can be depleted easily.

    I started taking Metformin recently to see if it would help me use less insulin. So far there's no change. Metformin works by reducing glucose (I'm guessing this is glucagon) output from the liver.

    I guess I'm just trying to piece together how my body works as a T1 diabetic. What are your thoughts on glucagon in my body and do you think metformin could be beneficial?

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    dilberryhoundog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brooke.S. View Post
    Hi Dil

    Ok, I know about insulin and a little about glucagon. If you remember, I have type 1 diabetes. I have only passed out once from a low blood sugar and was injected with glucagon. I know I do not produce insulin and from what I understand type 1's can produce glucagon but it's just in smaller amounts because it can be depleted easily.

    I started taking Metformin recently to see if it would help me use less insulin. So far there's no change. Metformin works by reducing glucose (I'm guessing this is glucagon) output from the liver.

    I guess I'm just trying to piece together how my body works as a T1 diabetic. What are your thoughts on glucagon in my body and do you think metformin could be beneficial?
    Hi brooke S

    Type 1 diabetes is a very serious affliction so don't rely on my knowledge of the human body, I'm still learning too, I actually think you and other T1 diabetics are amazing, I find it difficult to balance energy sometimes and i have the full use of my metabolism, so well done.

    Alot of my recent understanding has come from perusing a great site put up by a uni professor (i think) he seems to have no agenda and just tells it like it is, according to latest understanding.

    Insulin and Glucagon insulin and glucose

    New diabetes March 2008

    here is my basic understanding of your affliction.

    In a normal metabolisms, insulin and glucagon operate in a dance that balances blood glucose, the release of one hormone stops the release of the other, it is a paracrine action. meaning it is physically impossible to release high amounts of both hormones at once, if one is high, then the other must be low.
    The pancreas basically "detects" the BG level and realeases one or the other hormone depending on whether BG is heading above or below its optimal range. please note there is a third hormone call somatostatin that has little effect on BG, its job is to "hold steady" i think it basically shuts off digestion. (im not too sure about this hormone not much is written about it). Anyway insulin is an additive hormone (anabolic) it "adds" excess glucose to the liver and muscles, excess fat to adipose tissue and excess proteins to muscle. So when the body detects high BG it sais to it self "I'm in surplus here (good times) i need to store everything I can." Glucagon is a subtractive hormone (catabolic) It "subtracts" glycogen from the liver, fatty acids from adipose tissue and glucose from blood proteins, it sais that "I'm in a deficit here, I need to produce my own energy from the stores I had when times where good."

    Also it is good to note here, that the body must maintain blood glucose levels, Even ketosis just reduces the amount of glucose used up, the body will burn 50% less glucose at basal rate when ketones are fully available (note how it is only 50% not 90% or 100%).

    Now onto diabetes type 1.

    As there is no Insulin to "turn off" Glucagon, it is constantly released all day, all night. Glucagon is constantly breaking down liver glycogen to add glucose to the blood, any proteins present into glucose into the blood (your own body protein will be used here if there is not enough glycogen in the liver or amino's in the blood) and fat from fat cells into FFA's into the blood.
    If a carb meal is ingested and glucose is released into the blood, it will raise blood sugar, often times over optimal BG levels, in your case it will just sit there until you add insulin intravenously, but what happens is that while that is also happening, glucagon is realeasing glucose into the blood as well, from protein and liver glycogen. So once high, your blood glucose will keep raising and raising. this doesn't happen in normal metabolisms, the second insulin is released all the liver and protien glucose synthesis stops.

    Metformin is a drug that is supposed to switch off glucagon's effect on liver glycogen meaning it doesn't release BG from the liver while under the effects of the drug, I imagine the other effects of glucagon is still present, like fatty acid release and protien glucose synthesis, but i don't know. another thing im not sure of, but might happen also is your Alpha cells (glucagon releasing) might get worn out from operating all the time, this might lead to eventual hypoglycemic blood conditions (not enough glucagon to raise blood sugar).

    So basically your body is adding glucose to the blood at all times through glucagon. Metformin stops reduces this. metformin (should be) only useful when your BG is high, the metformin should stop/reduce it from raiseing BG any higher after a carb meal, metformin when BG is low would not be ideal as it would bring on hypoglycemia quicker.

    hope that helps a bit.
    A little primal gem - My Success Story
    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post

    Now onto diabetes type 1.

    As there is no Insulin to "turn off" Glucagon, it is constantly released all day, all night. Glucagon is constantly breaking down liver glycogen to add glucose to the blood, any proteins present into glucose into the blood (your own body protein will be used here if there is not enough glycogen in the liver or amino's in the blood) and fat from fat cells into FFA's into the blood.
    If a carb meal is ingested and glucose is released into the blood, it will raise blood sugar, often times over optimal BG levels, in your case it will just sit there until you add insulin intravenously, but what happens is that while that is also happening, glucagon is realeasing glucose into the blood as well, from protein and liver glycogen. So once high, your blood glucose will keep raising and raising. this doesn't happen in normal metabolisms, the second insulin is released all the liver and protien glucose synthesis stops.

    Metformin is a drug that is supposed to switch off glucagon's effect on liver glycogen meaning it doesn't release BG from the liver while under the effects of the drug, I imagine the other effects of glucagon is still present, like fatty acid release and protien glucose synthesis, but i don't know. another thing im not sure of, but might happen also is your Alpha cells (glucagon releasing) might get worn out from operating all the time, this might lead to eventual hypoglycemic blood conditions (not enough glucagon to raise blood sugar).

    So basically your body is adding glucose to the blood at all times through glucagon. Metformin stops reduces this. metformin (should be) only useful when your BG is high, the metformin should stop/reduce it from raiseing BG any higher after a carb meal, metformin when BG is low would not be ideal as it would bring on hypoglycemia quicker.

    hope that helps a bit.
    Thanks for breaking it down for me. So, pretty much, a type 1 diabetic is always releasing glucagon vs a non diabetic that doesn't unless it's needed? Even if I bolus insulin and don't get a high or low blood sugar?

    Technically, it sounds like Metformin could help me even as a type 1 diabetic. I'm going to give it another month.

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