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    Lockstock's Avatar
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    SS - Instead of barbell overhead press, can I single overhead press?

    Don't get me wrong, I understand that barbells equate more strength, but I just cant seem to overhead press safely without some kind of shoulder pain. I hope to resolve this with various rehab work but in the mean time, if not for good, could I effectively replace the BB OH press with single arm dumbbell variety. The freedom of movement they give me doesn't nearly as much put the same amount as stress on the join as the barbell one does.

    My gym also has one of those barbell ground holder things that you stick the bar into, so I can load it up pretty heavy. Weight wont be an issue.

    Has anyone had any experience with this?

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    In your case I think a single overhead press with a dumbbell is acceptable. Also, you could overhead press with with two dumbbells and see how your shoulders feel with that. I think that would be a better alternative than using a barbell in one of those guided racks.

    Also, there is no reason you couldn't build impressive strength using dumbbells over the barbells for pressing motions. And pressing one dumbbell will hit a whole bunch of muscles you never knew existed. The only real issue is if you are a power lifter and need to complete with a barbell press. If that is not the case, then dumbbells (one or two, or even better, periodically vary them) will work just fine.

    Remember the goal should be to get stronger without hurting yourself.

    FYI - Many years ago, I shattered my collarbone in a mountain biking accident. When I healed, my shoulders were slightly out of alignment. When I bench pressed with a bar, it would hurt my shoulders. I switched to dumbbells and the issue went away. I would think you will have a similar experience.

    Best of luck!

    John Mc
    Last edited by john_mcdonough; 08-25-2013 at 11:09 AM.

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    RichMahogany's Avatar
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    No. Your balls will shrivel up, your hair will fall out, and the pitch of your voice will rise so that people who call you on the phone call you "ma'am."

    For reals though, I like the idea of dumbbells better than the landmine as a main exercise. Get some of those magnetic weights so you can progress in small enough increments (even 4 x 1.25# magnets only let you progress by 5 lbs, since you need to weight each side of each dumbbell, which will eventually be too much). That's actually the biggest issue with dumbbell pressing instead of barbell.

    If you fill 4 ziploc bags with 0.625lbs of washers or birdshot or something, you can progress by 2.5 lbs at a time by duct taping them to the dumbbells, which the gym owners might not like. But as long as you figure something out, this is fine.

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    Yes. You can (and should include) 1 arm pressing in your routines. I like to use kettlebells, but dumbbells work great also.

    Concentrate in a tight core and keeping your body straight. Grip the floor with your toes, tighten your core, retract and lock your shoulder and press.

    Mix up 1 arm at a time and double DB presses. Try holding 2 in the rack position and alternating.

    A great way get get quite a few reps in is to do ladders. sets of 1,2,3,4,5 then start over at 1. Or 1,2,3,2,1. etc. Mix it up.

    Have fun.
    Never, never, never quit! -- Winston Churchill

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    I'm not sure where you heard that barbells are equated to more strength, because it's questionable at best. Your power comes from your feet through your legs through your core and then through your shoulders. Back when I was in high school, I weighed 156 and played tight end. The guys I was lined up against during practice would easily way 50-75 pounds more than I did at the time. And I could hold them in place indefinitely. I couldn't drive them back because I was tiny, but I could hold my own.

    I barely touched a weight my entire football career.

    If you want strong shoulders, then what you should be doing are pushups, pullups and eventually handstand pushups. If that's not enough, then would be the time to consider adding weights to it. It's your body ultimately, do with it what you want, but most of my shoulder problems go away when I'm doing the pushups and pullups and they tend to come back when I'm being less than diligent about it.

    Obviously, YMMV, consult a qualified physical therapist or other doctor about the specifics of your shoulder. But, I no longer wake up with both my arms completely asleep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    I'm not sure where you heard that barbells are equated to more strength,
    I can tell you where I heard that from: every strong person in the history of ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    because it's questionable at best.
    No, it really isn't

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    Your power comes from your feet through your legs through your core and then through your shoulders.
    Objection. Relevance? Who's talking about power? Power is dependent on strength, but different than strength. And lifting a barbell through a full range of motion displays some of both, depending on the lift (e.g. squats vs. snatches)

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    Back when I was in high school, I weighed 156 and played tight end. The guys I was lined up against during practice would easily way 50-75 pounds more than I did at the time. And I could hold them in place indefinitely. I couldn't drive them back because I was tiny, but I could hold my own.
    So you were smaller and weaker than your opponents, but it qualifies you as an authority on how to build strength?

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    I barely touched a weight my entire football career.
    Too bad. Maybe you could have played college ball. Sounds like you were a gifted athlete. Strength would have taken you a lot further than lack of strength.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    If you want strong shoulders, then what you should be doing are pushups, pullups and eventually handstand pushups.
    No. If you want to build strength endurance, you can do so with bodyweight alone. If you want to be strong, you need to load the movements. You can load them to a certain extent through increased leverage, but not as incrementally or as indefinitely as with a barbell.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    If that's not enough, then would be the time to consider adding weights to it. It's your body ultimately, do with it what you want, but most of my shoulder problems go away when I'm doing the pushups and pullups and they tend to come back when I'm being less than diligent about it.
    Are we talking about strength acquisition or rehab now?

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    Obviously, YMMV, consult a qualified physical therapist or other doctor about the specifics of your shoulder. But, I no longer wake up with both my arms completely asleep.
    If you consult a physical therapist or a doctor about strength, what do you consult a strength coach about? Needlepoint?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I can tell you where I heard that from: every strong person in the history of ever.
    That's not true at all. Barbells only became popular about a century or so ago. So, you're telling me that prior to the invention of the barbell there were no strong people? So, all those statutes you see of Greeks that are ripped like you rarely see today were just figments of my imagi


    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    No, it really isn't
    Yeah it is. I know from personal experience that you can build stronger muscles in a month or two carrying heavy, assymetric loads than you can in a gym.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Objection. Relevance? Who's talking about power? Power is dependent on strength, but different than strength. And lifting a barbell through a full range of motion displays some of both, depending on the lift (e.g. squats vs. snatches)
    Unless your job involves lifting those things on a regular basis, it's not relevant to your daily living. What's more, lifting the way that most people lift, does not encourage the sort of integrated strength that it takes.

    I don't know about you, but I've never been paid to life barbells. I have however been paid at various times to carry logs and push large rocks around. Which that gym equipment does precisely diddly squat to help do.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    So you were smaller and weaker than your opponents, but it qualifies you as an authority on how to build strength?
    the point here is that with such a huge deficit, if I were engaged in the sort of ill conceived workout regimentation you're pushing, I could never have done it. I just wouldn't have had the strength to do it.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Too bad. Maybe you could have played college ball. Sounds like you were a gifted athlete. Strength would have taken you a lot further than lack of strength.
    This is why I don't waste my time with gyms. The people there know nothing about being strong. They put crap like creatine and Vitamin-S in their bodies.

    The point is that I wasn't particularly gifted, I just wasn't wasting my time on ineffectual crap. I've tried the gym, and quite frankly, it's a waste of time and energy. I can hit every muscle group in my body much harder with the body weight stuff in about an hour or an hour and a half a week, than I could ever hope to achieve in the gym.

    You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but your arguments make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'm curious as to how all those people got ripped prior to the invention of free weights, or how those strong men of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were capable of supporting the weight of multiple people without the use of performance enhancing drugs, or free weights.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    No. If you want to build strength endurance, you can do so with bodyweight alone. If you want to be strong, you need to load the movements. You can load them to a certain extent through increased leverage, but not as incrementally or as indefinitely as with a barbell.
    B*****, spoken like an individual that flunked physics. With the bodyweight stuff there's a virtually infinite amount of gradation that you can work in, if you've got the creativity. Pushups, for example, you can start doing them against the wall and gradually go lower and lower until you're doing them with your hands on the floor. And with each inch you lower your hands, the exercise gets slightly more difficult.


    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Are we talking about strength acquisition or rehab now?
    Both, you start with the rehab series, and work your way up to harder stuff. It's just a matter of adjusting the variables to make it harder. This is one of the reasons why I dislike the gym. The people working out there think that adding weight makes them stronger. No, adding weight has never made anybody stronger. You add weight because you have gotten stronger.

    If you want to get stronger, you figure out how to make the weight you're using stronger.



    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    If you consult a physical therapist or a doctor about strength, what do you consult a strength coach about? Needlepoint?
    You consult the doctor about the specific injuries that led to the question in the first place. As for coaches, they're not for the purpose of getting stronger, they're for the purpose of teaching you how to engage in the sport. The strength is not something they should be teaching as they're not generally in a position to pass anything on. Most of the coaches I had in high school had lifelong injuries from lifting.

    Anyway, it was nice. Unfortunately, your viewpoint is all too common and results in a lot of people hurting themselves unnecessarily. If you want to know about calisthenics, there are tons of good books going back centuries. And I'd love to see your average gym goer do even just one back bridge. In extreme cases some of them have lost so much flexibility that they can barely tie their own shoe and can't scratch their own back because they've lost all that flexibility.

    It's your body, if you want to abuse it doing things that have little to no value athletically that's your prerogative. As for me, I'll spend less time working out, less time injured and more time enjoying the benefits of fitness.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    That's not true at all. Barbells only became popular about a century or so ago. So, you're telling me that prior to the invention of the barbell there were no strong people? So, all those statutes you see of Greeks that are ripped like you rarely see today were just figments of my imagi
    You think the Greeks looked exactly like their statues? Do you think the statue-people were stronger than Doug Young?

    By the way, the ancients knew about the principles of progressive overload. Google "Milo of Croton."

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    Yeah it is. I know from personal experience that you can build stronger muscles in a month or two carrying heavy, assymetric loads than you can in a gym.
    But you never lifted weights in a gym, so how do you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    Unless your job involves lifting those things on a regular basis, it's not relevant to your daily living. What's more, lifting the way that most people lift, does not encourage the sort of integrated strength that it takes.
    So push-ups are relevant to real life strength demands, but the bench press is not? And the squat and deadlift don't require "integrated strength?" Quick, call all the newspapers!

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    I don't know about you, but I've never been paid to life barbells. I have however been paid at various times to carry logs and push large rocks around. Which that gym equipment does precisely diddly squat to help do.
    Who can push around bigger rocks, a person who deadlifts 600 lbs or one that deadlifts 225? You think there's no carryover between lifting a barbell and lifting odd objects? Odd that Strongman training is so heavily dependent on Barbell lifts then.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    the point here is that with such a huge deficit, if I were engaged in the sort of ill conceived workout regimentation you're pushing, I could never have done it. I just wouldn't have had the strength to do it.
    If you got a hell of a lot stronger, you would have had a harder time holding your own on the football field? Does not compute.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    This is why I don't waste my time with gyms. The people there know nothing about being strong. They put crap like creatine and Vitamin-S in their bodies.
    OMG not creatine!!! You're right. People in gyms know nothing about being strong. You're the expert.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    The point is that I wasn't particularly gifted, I just wasn't wasting my time on ineffectual crap. I've tried the gym, and quite frankly, it's a waste of time and energy. I can hit every muscle group in my body much harder with the body weight stuff in about an hour or an hour and a half a week, than I could ever hope to achieve in the gym.
    How can you hit your legs harder with bodyweight exercise than you could with a 2x bodyweight barbell squat below parallel? Don't tell me here, write an e-book and sell it for lots of money. You'll put the entire fitness (and fitness equipment) industry out of business.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    You're certainly entitled to your opinion,
    Well, thanks for saying so!

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    but your arguments make absolutely no sense whatsoever. I'm curious as to how all those people got ripped prior to the invention of free weights,
    Wait, are we talking about being ripped or being strong?

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    or how those strong men of the late 19th and early 20th centuries were capable of supporting the weight of multiple people without the use of performance enhancing drugs, or free weights.
    When have I ever once suggested that anyone use performance-enhancing drugs? Talk about a straw man. A barbell is not a needle, bro.

    The real question isn't whether there were strong people in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. It's how much stronger they could have been if they had access to the knowledge and equipment we have today.

    Your post is made up of nothing but conjecture and personal experience that excludes actual work in a gym. You really don't have a right to an opinion on the subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    B*****, spoken like an individual that flunked physics. With the bodyweight stuff there's a virtually infinite amount of gradation that you can work in, if you've got the creativity. Pushups, for example, you can start doing them against the wall and gradually go lower and lower until you're doing them with your hands on the floor. And with each inch you lower your hands, the exercise gets slightly more difficult.
    Again, how can you do a bodyweight exercise that's harder than a 2x bodyweight bench press or squat? Answer: you can't.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    Both, you start with the rehab series, and work your way up to harder stuff. It's just a matter of adjusting the variables to make it harder. This is one of the reasons why I dislike the gym. The people working out there think that adding weight makes them stronger. No, adding weight has never made anybody stronger. You add weight because you have gotten stronger.
    This is exactly wrong. You are unfamiliar with Selye's General Adaptation Theory, human physiology, and gymbro psychology.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    If you want to get stronger, you figure out how to make the weight you're using stronger.
    I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. If you want to get stronger, you provide the stimulus that results in the adaptation of getting stronger. Eg lift more weight than you did last time.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    You consult the doctor about the specific injuries that led to the question in the first place. As for coaches, they're not for the purpose of getting stronger, they're for the purpose of teaching you how to engage in the sport. The strength is not something they should be teaching as they're not generally in a position to pass anything on. Most of the coaches I had in high school had lifelong injuries from lifting.
    Strength coaches aren't there to get you strong? The doctor doesn't have the answer to his question. Neither does his PT. I doubt you actually care to learn anything rather than just spout your incorrect assertions, but if I'm wrong, give this a read:
    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...hrows_down&cr=


    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    Anyway, it was nice. Unfortunately, your viewpoint is all too common and results in a lot of people hurting themselves unnecessarily. If you want to know about calisthenics, there are tons of good books going back centuries. And I'd love to see your average gym goer do even just one back bridge. In extreme cases some of them have lost so much flexibility that they can barely tie their own shoe and can't scratch their own back because they've lost all that flexibility.
    Yes, everybody who squats below parallel and deadlifts can't reach his shoe. That's perfectly logical.

    Quote Originally Posted by hedwards View Post
    It's your body, if you want to abuse it doing things that have little to no value athletically that's your prerogative. As for me, I'll spend less time working out, less time injured and more time enjoying the benefits of fitness.
    How exactly does strength have no value athletically? I've found it to be immensely useful in my sports of choice. As has everyone else who's ever gotten strong. In the history of ever.
    Last edited by RichMahogany; 08-29-2013 at 06:50 AM.

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    Rich wins. Fatality!

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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    Rich wins. Fatality!
    Through the use of the logic and multiquote combo move....

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