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  1. #91
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    I am definitely not here to find vegan information. Been here since 2011 and been primal for nearly a year.

    I just switched to a "primal" vegan (imagine myself to be a grok in a dense rainforest with abudant fruits and vegetables, which big cities in this globalised world are; i can get fruits and vegetables within 10 minutes no matter where i am in the city i live in).
    So still follow largely primal principals - avoiding grains and processed foods, eating whole foods + movement & lifting principles.

    This has evolved into a much more versatile forum, well beyond a primal diet only forum. Wealth of information and interesting discussions on exercise, nutrition research, living well, etc. I enjoy being part of it and contributing to the discussions.
    Few but ripe.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    I have not seen anything about harley adding in cooked starches to his diet.
    Hi Zack, If you want to see examples of where Durianrider and Freelee talk about eating cooked starchy foods, check out the links I provided above. DR even talked about starchy plant foods being the second best food type of all for him after sugary fruits! He has also warned against eating too much fatty plant foods like nuts, seeds, avocadoes and coconuts and said it's better to eat cooked starchy foods than these and other fatty foods, even from raw plant sources.

    I canít imagine how DRís replacing some of his fruit intake with sugar would increase his BUN and transferrin saturation. Do you have an explanatory mechanism for your hypothesis on that?

    I think youíre probably right re: DRís triglyceride numbers and it reveals how amazingly complex diet, the human body and nature in general are.

    Here are some of Harley's suboptimal numbers that I noticed:
    - low B12 ("Vegetarians, vegans and the elderly are at high risk of developing vitamin B12 deficiency through changes in their diets, according to a review of scientific studies"--http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/263626.php, which low HCL in the stomach can contribute to--http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/VitaminB12-QuickFacts/; DR is using B12 injections to compensate)
    - low chloride
    - high bicarbonate (can be caused by chloride depletion, which his numbers show, due to deficiency in acidic gastric juice (HCL) http://www.anaesthesiamcq.com/AcidBaseBook/ab7_2.php; which is a symptom of pernicious anemia, which fits with his numbers and which Harley has reported having)
    - usually low protein and low urea (indicating that he is not consuming much bioavailable protein)
    - low zinc (which can contribute to oxidative stress and low testosterone)
    - suboptimal testosterone
    - elevated folate - an indicator of inflammatory bowel disease (DR reported having Crohn's disease in the past)
    - sometimes high phosphate (an indicator of oxidative stress)
    - sometimes low transferrin saturation with moderate ferritin (an indicator of oxidative stress)
    - low cortisol (an indicator of adrenal insufficiency, which can occur with chronic oxidative stress)
    - usually elevated lactate dehydrogenase (possibly due to his long-distance biking)

    (Note: I'm not saying that the above illness indications necessarily mean that DR has them to the extent that they would be clinically diagnosed. Further investigation would be needed and it would be helpful if we could see all his numbers over time to get a better sense of which are flukes and which are chronic issues.)

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70in2012 View Post
    i am willing to accept a minor inconvenience of being sup-optimally healthy during a few years that i will live in return for not supporting industrial scale, unnecessary slaughter of animals.
    But you have no qualms about supporting industrial scale, unnecessary slaughter of entire ecosystems.

    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    To the point of industrially managed animal foods, there's a simple way to avoid it -- go straight to farm, purchasing farm-butchered, etc. Boom. Done.

    You see, back in the day, I was vegan. My husband was not. We discovered local farms where we could get chickens, beef, bison, venison, eggs, dairy products (raw), and even a trout farm that was surprisingly clean. only the bison was managed "off farm" at a small-scale, family-owned slaughter house that I actually visited and watched them go through the whole process. It was nothing like large scale, industrial feed lots or slaughterhouses. Honestly, it was very respectful, humane, and very, very clean.

    I totally get your desire to be vegan/vegetarian -- totally go for it if you feel it's the best thing to do (though this is a weird website on which to find information about that sort of lifestyle). But if/when you feel that it might be important to eat meat (or eggs/dairy) again, go and look for local farms. The weston a price foundation has great lists of farms on their web site (by state and country).
    ^^This

    If you don't want to support Monsanto, industrial farming that rapes the planet with chemicals and machines and pollutes the water table and exploits people, you're going to have to go visit farms or at the very least trust the farmers you meet at the farmer's market. As long as you are doing this, you'll find that chicken and eggs, beef, pork and lamb are also available.

    Go vegetarian if you really want to. Just don't fool yourself that it's an easy way to a cruelty-free, pollution-free, exploitation-free way of life. Don't fool yourself you are "saving the rain forest" while you are participating in the ruination of the prairie and temperate plains. You're going to have to work just as hard as conscientious meat eaters.
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  4. #94
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    Hey phil, even though Harley talks about starch being second best to fruit and that in the past he ate heavily starch and veg, i dont think he currently does. Instead i think he is upping his sugar intake further with added sugar, not replacing calories per say. Its probably very expensive so sugar is an alternative cheap source.

    Yea i believe most of those blood test issues are simply a byproduct of a VLF raw vegan diet. He would probably argue that most of those low numbers (besides test) to be optimal. Im pretty sure he said in the video that low uric acid is a verg good thing. Obviously they believe that high (moderate) protein consumption is detrimental to health.

  5. #95
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    Hi Zach, I'll start with where I strongly agree with you:
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Potatoes are one of the best sources of protein, dont know why you would avoid them.
    Current evidence supports you on this (ex: Whole Health Source: Potatoes and Human Health, Part I). I don't know why a vegan would avoid potatoes if they don't have a sensitivity to them. American vegans who handle them fine should instead probably emphasize potatoes and other tubers and roots (though I'm not prescribing for anyone and YMMV). Every traditional culture around the world that has access to underground storage organs (USOs) includes them as some of their most important staples and the names of starchy foods traditionally are interchangeable with words for "food". Heck, even traditional Eskimos (Eskimo potato - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) and ZC hero Vilhjalmur Stefansson (The Fat of the Land, 1960, p. xxvi) ate potatoes! Avoiding potatoes just because they're on some guru's "do not eat" list or because they are a "starch" is an unthinking, unquestioning approach. When is starch-phobia going to die its long overdue death?

    Please note that I didn’t say that DR “ate heavily starch.” Given the insane amounts of fruits that DR reports eating, second best food type of all doesn't necessarily mean he eats them heavily. DR said he is eating some cooked starchy foods (and Freelee is pigging out on them—4-5 lbs in a single meal--can she down the potatoes or what? ), whereas in the past he said he was eating 100% raw vegan (presumably meaning no starchy foods like cooked potatoes). If he’s telling the truth, then he’s eating more starchy foods than in the past (unless he ate raw starchy foods in the past like raw unripe plantains/bananas, raw chestnuts, raw potatoes, raw sweet potatoes?) and that increase could account for his small rise in urea and protein #’s, though he started reporting eating starchy cooked foods before the increase started, so the most plausible explanation is either a recent further increase or a random fluke. He hasn’t provided as much info as Freelee about how much cooked starchy foods he’s eating, but given that he said he’s eating some, then presumably it’s more than the zero of the past.

    Whether his added sugar intake added to his total calories or replaced them, you still seem to be implying that sugar is the key change and might account for his recently increased urea and protein that I was talking about and I’m still interested in your explanation. How this would occur via sugar (organic cane sugar, according to DR, which he said he added to see what it would do to his triglycerides and didn’t mention urea or protein in relation to that). I already acknowledged that the sugar didn’t worsen his numbers, I’m just puzzled by your connecting the sugar to his proteins. Here’s your chance to educate me and everyone else on an apparent wonder of sugar. I’m not some ZC zealot, if that’s what’s got you holding your tongue. I adore many fruits and berries and wish I could eat more of them.

    Yes, of course DR would claim that his below-range uric acid and all his #’s are optimal or nearly so, as he has already done repeatedly (it gets really laughable when he claims a below-range number is what you really should want and then when it rises contradicts himself by saying it’s an improvement—-he could debate himself ). Is that supposed to be persuasive? It’s obvious that no matter what his numbers are he’s going to claim that he’s doing great. That’s why anyone who isn’t drinking the Kool Aid and is interested in possibly learning something from his example should ignore what he says and look instead at the actual numbers (which he doesn’t make easy with his shaking them around and showing only little bits at a time ). If a zero carber had out-of-range lab #’s, would you accept his assurances that they’re all fine and tout them as evidence for a LC approach?

    Thank you for encouraging us to look into DR's numbers. They are not the worst I’ve seen by any means (which I haven’t seen a good explanation for yet from proponents of zero carb and VLC), but worse than I realized. I knew about his chronically low B12 offset with injections and his low cortisol, but I didn’t realize that he had multiple other suboptimal numbers as well until you brought it to my attention and I took another, deeper look. Most interesting.

    Another of my questions I don’t think you answered is whether you’ve ever eaten as much potatoes at one sitting as Freelee has? Cheers!
    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-06-2013 at 05:57 PM.

  6. #96
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    Definitely not implying that his white sugar intake is accouting for his urea levels. Sorry if i was confusing, im usually replying from an iphone which makes it cery difficult to recall what im replying to and keeping things coherent. I think all i said a obout the sugar was that i believed he was adding in extra calories on top of his already high calorie diet. (3k to 4-5k) because he was saying that he was not feeling his best and more fruit was too expensive so sugar was the best source of calories. Thats also why i thought that he was not eating starch like freelee has been. I have not seen a video where he says that he currently is.

    I agree with the rest of what you said about his labs, he makes it difficult to see because im sure he knows that some results will give his critics fodder. I dont believe for a second that his diet will ever be optimal for anyone but i believe he is a lot more right then wrong and he makes some very good points.

    Phil, what made you interested enough keep track of them? Strictly research or do you implement any of their ideas into your diet?

  7. #97
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    Oh and no i have never attempted that many potatoes! That is really amazing given that she wont be hsing salt or butter on them.

    I have ate some big amounts of fruit in one sitting but probably nothing compared to a meal for them. I would be a horrible 811er.

  8. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Definitely not implying that his white sugar intake is accouting for his urea levels.
    So we agree that increased sugar intake probably wouldn't explain his increased urea, testosterone and total protein, whereas the addition of tubers, rice and corn to his diet that he reported might, yes?

    Do you have a link where he said that he increased his calorie intake from 3k to 4-5k? I actually thought he was already eating more than 3k.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Thats also why i thought that he was not eating starch like freelee has been.

    ... I have not seen a video where he says that he currently is.
    Here's an example, starting around 3:25 at this video I linked before for you: Day 10:Why sometimes eating cooked food is BETTER than RAW FOOD - YouTube -- Freelee and Durianrider talk about how they used to eat high fat raw foods when they couldn't get high carb raw foods (including DR recounting how he once ate 2 lbs of raw cashews), whereas they now instead recommend eating cooked starchy or sugary foods when they can't get raw sugary foods. They even outed Doug Graham as a cooked food eater in the video, in support of their change.

    If that wasn't clear enough, then a few seconds of Googling produced this at 30 Bananas a Day!:

    Reply by DURIANRIDER on December 25, 2011 at 11:00am
    Ive eaten literally TONNES of rice and potatoes...

    Reply by Brent on December 22, 2011 at 2:18pm
    Nice man! So have you eaten cooked food in the last few years? ...

    Reply by DURIANRIDER on December 25, 2011 at 11:16am[/b]
    Definitely bro. Ive had baked bananas,pumpkin,brocoli, steamed corn and steamed rice. ...
    Heck, it sounds like he's eating less raw than I do and I only call my diet "mostly-raw" instead of "raw" like he calls his!

    DR mentioned in one of his videos that he doesn't eat cooked starchy foods because of cost, and I can't imagine that one would have to eat tons of rice and potatoes in Australia simply because of lack of fruits, juices and sugars while on the road (after all, fruits, juices and bags of sugar are sold in the same markets that have the rice and potatoes). Plus he and Freelee reported in the videos I linked to that his health, energy and mental function improved when he replaced raw fatty vegan foods with cooked starchy vegan foods, and they even now talk about eating a diet based on a cross between the ideas of Doug Graham and Dr. McDougall. So the obvious takeaway is that he's eating starchy foods at least partly for health reasons and isn't yet being fully open and direct about that. Freelee is more open about this, though she is still being somewhat vague and coy about it. I suspect that we'll see them gradually become more and more open and direct about it and talk more about McDougall and somewhat less about Graham.

    Phil, what made you interested enough keep track of them? Strictly research or do you implement any of their ideas into your diet?
    Both. People on extreme diets can be educational examples. They and other vegans also helped drive home the point for me that Prof. Stephan Guyenet had made that some people can eat boatloads of carbs without spiking BG or getting fat. And one thing I tried was DR's suggestion to let bananas get super-ripe, and I also did this with plantains (they were tasty and easily digestible, but it didn't work out for me because they spike my BG badly). Plus, Youtube suggested their videos to me because I sometimes watch videos about raw foods, both plant and animal, and after I watched one of their videos, Youtube started suggesting them more often. And then you revived my curiosity about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Oh and no i have never attempted that many potatoes! That is really amazing given that she wont be hsing salt or butter on them.
    Yeah, and she showed in that same video that she stocks potatoes, squash, corn pasta, etc. in her home. So it looks like she eats quite a lot of cooked starchy foods and it's not just a matter of eating them as a last resort on the road when no fruits are available.

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    Last edited by Paleophil; 09-08-2013 at 10:13 AM.

  9. #99
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    For as much as one might assert that this board is much broader than primal -- that is both true and false.

    It is true in that we can discuss anything. It is false in that most of the people who come here are interested in primal as it is outlined in the blueprint by the author. His book does not outline a primal veganism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Because a sugar idet is the healthiest option, especially for vegans since most other options are either low calories, high fat (mostly unsaturated), highly estrogenic from tons of grains, legumes (soy!) and nuts, very low nutriant density or all of the above.

    Potatoes are one of the best sources of protein, dont know why you would avoid them. Fruit is one of the best sources for nutriants and doesnt have any of the problems tha veg, nuts and legumes has. And its obvious they high carb/low fat is superior to low carb/high fat when it comes to vegans since they cant include any animal sources to make the fat a decent source besides coconut.
    Except that your plan here gave me eating disorders and major mental issues. I was a high fat *raw* vegan ffs. I had to, or else I'd be pretty near suicidal and I'd be struggling with eating and food if I ate low fat high carb (and I was religious 80 10 10 for a year and struggled with it for another year after that, going absolutely insane). So no. A vegan diet in general is unhealthy but there are ways to help mitigate the disaster in the short run at least. Long run.... Eesh.

    One thing to mention: oysters and other bivalves, but especially oysters, are often considered vegan. They have no nervous system, cannot suffer, and are an environmental zero impact as they are a renewable resource harvested where food cannot be grown. There's arguments on both sides of this; when I was vegan, that it was flesh meant it was off limits. But balancing ethics with necessary nutrients one cannot get from vegetable matter, it may be an addition to look at for vegan diets.

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