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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
    Wait, I thought we were making everyone the same weight and height? I'm confused. So if GSP and whoever else are the same size/weight/whatever...I wouldn't bet against GSP. Great defense, super-technical...I dunno. He's like a robot that sits there and analyzes everything you throw at him, then finds your weakness and exploits it. Although I've seen a bit less of this in recent fights than in years past--he's gotten a bit conservative and afraid to lose, I think...but in his prime?
    Well, there's two different questions worth answering. I was saying that the fighters must stay in their own body, but they can add as much muscle as they want (no limit; for instance Silva adds 20 lbs to fight Jones at 205, but Jones can also add 30 pounds to fight Silva with a large weight advantage still). Your question is the quintessential pound-for-pound question.

    I'll take Jon Jones in an exhibition match with no weight limit, but I would take BJ Penn if I could clone his skills onto Jones' body.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 08-30-2013 at 04:41 PM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Explain that. The smaller fighter may know how to fight like a smaller fighter, but the bigger fighter can also know how to fight like a bigger fighter. Reach has always been a clear advantage in most types of fighting that I have seen or participated in. Some fighters have gotten by without it, but they had other exceptional traits to make up the difference.
    Specifically, fighting from the inside is successful if you have the skillset. And in mma, you can instantaneously eliminate a reach advantage by utilizing kicks or just going to the ground. A reach advantage in mma isn't nearly as advantageous as it is in boxing

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    Specifically, fighting from the inside is successful if you have the skillset. And in mma, you can instantaneously eliminate a reach advantage by utilizing kicks or just going to the ground. A reach advantage in mma isn't nearly as advantageous as it is in boxing
    But what about the power advantage? Jon Jones hits a hell of a lot harder, and his length gives him the mechanical advantage, so he should theoretically be able to throw more punches than a smaller guy if Jones and the other guy are throwing the same punch power. In other words, more power and/or stamina.

    That's just a discussion on punches, but the same applies to kicks.

    As for grappling, long limbs can be lethal there too. Jones is able to make submission moves that most can't because their arms can't reach far enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    But what about the power advantage? Jon Jones hits a hell of a lot harder, and his length gives him the mechanical advantage, so he should theoretically be able to throw more punches than a smaller guy if Jones and the other guy are throwing the same punch power. In other words, more power and/or stamina.

    That's just a discussion on punches, but the same applies to kicks.

    As for grappling, long limbs can be lethal there too. Jones is able to make submission moves that most can't because their arms can't reach far enough.
    Speed and technique would allow a fighter to throw more punches, not reach and power. A flyweight can throw and land more punches in a minute than a heavyweight.

    I don't doubt that jones is a talented fighter, just don't think he is "the one" out of all the guys we are discussing here.

    Long limbs can be advantageous on the ground as well. But sheer jits expertise overrides that. If they were the same size, bj penn would twist jones up like a pretzel and send him home crying to his mommy

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    Speed and technique would allow a fighter to throw more punches, not reach and power. A flyweight can throw and land more punches in a minute than a heavyweight.

    I don't doubt that jones is a talented fighter, just don't think he is "the one" out of all the guys we are discussing here.

    Long limbs can be advantageous on the ground as well. But sheer jits expertise overrides that. If they were the same size, bj penn would twist jones up like a pretzel and send him home crying to his mommy
    "More punches" does not refer to speed. It refers to stamina. Imagine the mechanics as if each part of the arm is a lever. Shorter-armed guys use more muscle to make their levers move at the same speed. Longer-armed guys can either equal the shorter guy's punch velocity and expend less energy, or they can exceed the shorter guy's velocity and expend the same amount of energy. And in actuality, they can probably find a 'sweetspot' of power where they punch easily but still exceed the shorter guy's velocity but also expend less energy than him.

    Sure, jujitsu experience can help cover up weaknesses on the ground like having shorter limbs and weighing less. However, I'll make the same point that I did about the strikes. The bigger guy can still use his length and weight to benefit himself. This appears to still be an advantage for the bigger guy unless you can explain how jujitsu technique is not size-dependent, which I actually might agree with. The reason being is that now the shorter guy can apply great torque on the taller guy's joints with less effort than against a man of the same strength but with shorter arms. The reason is once again mechanical levers.

    "Give me a lever long enough, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    "More punches" does not refer to speed. It refers to stamina. Imagine the mechanics as if each part of the arm is a lever. Shorter-armed guys use more muscle to make their levers move at the same speed. Longer-armed guys can either equal the shorter guy's punch velocity and expend less energy, or they can exceed the shorter guy's velocity and expend the same amount of energy. And in actuality, they can probably find a 'sweetspot' of power where they punch easily but still exceed the shorter guy's velocity but also expend less energy than him.

    Sure, jujitsu experience can help cover up weaknesses on the ground like having shorter limbs and weighing less. However, I'll make the same point that I did about the strikes. The bigger guy can still use his length and weight to benefit himself. This appears to still be an advantage for the bigger guy unless you can explain how jujitsu technique is not size-dependent, which I actually might agree with. The reason being is that now the shorter guy can apply great torque on the taller guy's joints with less effort than against a man of the same strength but with shorter arms. The reason is once again mechanical levers.

    "Give me a lever long enough, and I shall move the world." - Archimedes
    It sounds like you are saying that bigger/longer fighters have better stamina and can therefore throw more punches. Maybe I am misunderstanding you though. I think stamina/conditioning are individual things, and not size dependant at all. In fact, I think that hard work will only take you so far in that regard too. Some people just have more stamina than others no matter how much conditioning work they do.

    I totally get what you are saying about mechanical advantage, but I actually think when skill and technique are involved in something (not just fighting) there are many ways around size. Why is it that a 5'8", 165lb pitcher can generate the same force as a 6'2", 205lb guy can? How come randy johnson didn't throw 125mph? Dude was 6'10" or something. I think size only takes you so far. Skill is the ultimate equalizer. A 135lb fighter with 10 years experience would destroy a 185lb guy with 1 year experience. This is only true to an extent though. At some point in time, size and strength will overtake technique. No way a 135lb guy is making brock lesnar tap out, no matter how much technique the little guy has
    Last edited by not on the rug; 08-31-2013 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    It sounds like you are saying that bigger/longer fighters have better stamina and can therefore throw more punches. Maybe I am misunderstanding you though. I think stamina/conditioning are individual things, and not size dependant at all. In fact, I think that hard work will only take you so far in that regard too. Some people just have more stamina than others no matter how much conditioning work they do.
    That's exactly what I'm saying. It's assuming all other things are equal.

    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    I totally get what you are saying about mechanical advantage, but I actually think when skill and technique are involved in something (not just fighting) there are many ways around size. Why is it that a 5'8", 165lb pitcher can generate the same force as a 6'2", 205lb guy can? How come randy johnson didn't throw 125mph? Dude was 6'10" or something. I think size only takes you so far. Skill is the ultimate equalizer. A 135lb fighter with 10 years experience would destroy a 185lb guy with 1 year experience. This is only true to an extent though. At some point in time, size and strength will overtake technique. No way a 135lb guy is making brock lesnar tap out, no matter how much technique the little guy has
    But the skill differences are small at the UFC level, right? Isn't it an advantage to be Jon Jones versus even a guy like BJ Penn?

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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    That's exactly what I'm saying. It's assuming all other things are equal.


    But the skill differences are small at the UFC level, right? Isn't it an advantage to be Jon Jones versus even a guy like BJ Penn?
    Assuming all things are equal then, stamina/conditioning are still independent of size. As a general rule, the more muscle mass a person carries, the worse their conditioning is.

    I think skill level differences depend on the fighters. Clearly, some fighters are better at jits and want to take every fight to the ground and some are better at stand up and want to remain standing. So there can be huge differences in skill level in any given fight. As for a penn/jones fight, penn is probably superior in every given discipline, including conditioning. I do give jones the nod in creativity. Dude definitely throws some interesting strikes from interesting angles.

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    A real MMA superfight may finally be coming up, Aldo vs. Pettis. A lot of UFC talk this year about a champion vs. champion bout, but with Silva's loss to Wiedman and most of the talk having centered around GSP vs. Silva or Silva vs. Jones, those clearly aren't happening for a while, if at all. Pettis vs. Aldo would be incredible, way more exciting than Benson vs. Aldo would've been.

    Also, it's a much closer fight in terms of size. As much as I'd love to see either of the Silva fights, the size differences really are much greater. GSP is considerably smaller than Silva, and even though Silva has fought at 205, Jones is just so big for a LHW. Jones vs. Cain would probably be a closer fight actually. Jones cuts so much to fight at light heavy (walks around at 230 or so I believe), plus he's so young that he's still actually growing. I think he probably has to work at keeping his muscle down. Jones fighting at heavyweight at some point in time is almost inevitable I think.

    It'd be nice to see any of them really, I feel like it's time, they owe us one. Since none of the guys at the higher weights seemed too interested, and Pettis actually called for it and volunteered, I think it'd be a great option. But Aldo's still injured though, and Pettis doesn't even have one defense yet. Even if it does happen, I'm sure they'll push it off for a while.

    Fedor > Everyone.
    Last edited by TheChokingGame; 09-02-2013 at 08:32 AM.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    Assuming all things are equal then, stamina/conditioning are still independent of size. As a general rule, the more muscle mass a person carries, the worse their conditioning is.

    I think skill level differences depend on the fighters. Clearly, some fighters are better at jits and want to take every fight to the ground and some are better at stand up and want to remain standing. So there can be huge differences in skill level in any given fight. As for a penn/jones fight, penn is probably superior in every given discipline, including conditioning. I do give jones the nod in creativity. Dude definitely throws some interesting strikes from interesting angles.
    I gotta agree with NOTR for conditioning and stamina being independent of size. If anything you would make the opposite argument that greater reach and size would lead to less stamina rather than more. You have to move all that mass a further distance for effect. Look at lifters too. Short limbs make the movements easier to perform greater reps in many instances. Less movement necessary to accomplish one rep vs a fella with longer limbs.

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