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Thread: Alan Aragon's Argument against paleo/primal lifestyle (with slide show) page 6

  1. #51
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    Yes, I've read the actual study. It's not free fulltext, but there are copies floating around the web that a quick Googling will likely reveal to you.

    Their demolishing of the Finnish Mental Hospital Study is priceless. They did a great deal of investigative work to figure out exactly what the dietary interventions in each study (some decades old) were doing to n-3 and TFA consumption...and the results are not kind at all to the Mozaffarian et.al. paper, which is clearly shown to have omitted the trials unfavorable to their predetermined conclusion for bogus reasons.

    Example: "Although STARS had three study arms and a pre-intervention drug trial, it was included in their meta-analysis(7) while the RCOT was excluded for containing ‘multiple interventions’, despite also having three study arms. Another n-6 specific
    PUFA RCT, the SDHS, was excluded because it reported only total death, which was considered a ‘non-CHD endpoint’(7). However, the vast majority of deaths (91 %) in the SDHS were attributed to CHD(38)."

    JS

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    JS, I'm a big fan of yours. But sentences like this are just an appeal to authority, reminiscent of Campbell's dismissal of Minder about the china study, since it's just 'too complex' for her simplistic analysis.

    I mean, couldn't adherents of any particular food philosophy make the same arguements in favour of their predisposed diet solution?
    Not in this specific case. The paper I'm quoting (Ramsden 2010) specifically addresses Mozaffarian et.al. in great detail, which is why I quoted it above in message #51.

    Anyone who has spent meaningful amounts of time investigating the PUFA issue cannot fail to have encountered both papers, as they're both widely publicized meta-analyses published in high-impact journals.

    I don't make claims of that nature ("It takes a long time to become familiar enough with the research to get a bigger picture...much longer than it takes to justify a pre-existing prejudice with a few footnotes.") unless I believe them to be supported by the data. In this case, I feel justified in saying that anyone who cites Mozaffarian 2010 but not Ramsden 2010 either has an agenda, is quoting someone with an agenda, or simply hasn't done the work required to make categorical statements.

    JS

  3. #53
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    I think Alan makes some good points and he is at least basing it on research/science.

    A paleo diet in any of it's incarnations is better than the typical standard American diet, but you could say the same thing about a vegetarian diet. I think the safe thing for most of us would be to eat real foods and eat lesss processed foods.

    I followed a low carb paleo diet for a couple years. I lost weight and performed better, but eventually it ran me down. I was tired all the time and started having trouble with insomnia, etc.

    I've noticed that more than one of the paleo gurus reports that they are run down or suffreing from "adrenal fatigue." Isn't your diet supposed to make you feel better? I find this interesting.

  4. #54
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    Alan has some great points. Th fact that he is taking the Cordain's paleo diet down on topics I have issues with supports my thoughts. I really think full Paleo is too limited. I have always been really interested in Human development and whetter the Paleo diet is really paleo or not we know a few things as fact:

    - SAD isn't working.... too much sugar, too much salt and a lot of people are allergic or hyper sensitive to wheat. It gives to think that we aren't meant to eat wheat.
    - High amounts of carbs isn't good for a body. you can look around and see it. people are fat, in pain and not moving well. the carbs in a SAD consist of a lot of refined sugar.
    - There are so many people who are doing well on primal/paleo... there is some truth to it...
    - nobody has died from eating whole, healthy foods... that's what Primal to me is all about.

    last fact, we weren't made for being overweight and sitting on a couch... Paleo and Primal got that right, we are made to move forward...

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarielleGO View Post
    Alan has some great points. Th fact that he is taking the Cordain's paleo diet down on topics I have issues with supports my thoughts. I really think full Paleo is too limited. I have always been really interested in Human development and whetter the Paleo diet is really paleo or not we know a few things as fact:

    - SAD isn't working.... too much sugar, too much salt and a lot of people are allergic or hyper sensitive to wheat. It gives to think that we aren't meant to eat wheat.
    - High amounts of carbs isn't good for a body. you can look around and see it. people are fat, in pain and not moving well. the carbs in a SAD consist of a lot of refined sugar.
    - There are so many people who are doing well on primal/paleo... there is some truth to it...
    - nobody has died from eating whole, healthy foods... that's what Primal to me is all about.

    last fact, we weren't made for being overweight and sitting on a couch... Paleo and Primal got that right, we are made to move forward...

    Good points. Just a couple thoughts:

    You mention that people may be allergic or sensative to wheat. The existence of true celiac disease is actually very low. I see MDs telling there patients to get off of wheat. The patients that do that sometimes see benefits, but was it due to giving up wheat or to giving up lots of processed food, which is invariably what happens when one gives up wheat.

    Maybe it isn't wheat that makes people fat, but instead the processed foods. Look at the bread you get in a grocery store. It has a long long list of indgredients. I can make bread at home with 5 or less ingredients. It doesn't keep as long because it doesn't have all those other additives, but maybe that should tell us something.

    You mention that too many carbs aren't good for people. We can actually find cultures that are very healthy on high carb diets. We can also find cultures that have maintained health on a very high fat diet. The one thing they have in common: no crackers, chips, twinkies, etc. I think that processed foods are making people sick and fat, not too much carbohydrate or too much fat.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by squeally dan View Post
    Good points. Just a couple thoughts:

    You mention that people may be allergic or sensative to wheat. The existence of true celiac disease is actually very low. I see MDs telling there patients to get off of wheat. The patients that do that sometimes see benefits, but was it due to giving up wheat or to giving up lots of processed food, which is invariably what happens when one gives up wheat.

    Maybe it isn't wheat that makes people fat, but instead the processed foods. Look at the bread you get in a grocery store. It has a long long list of indgredients. I can make bread at home with 5 or less ingredients. It doesn't keep as long because it doesn't have all those other additives, but maybe that should tell us something.

    You mention that too many carbs aren't good for people. We can actually find cultures that are very healthy on high carb diets. We can also find cultures that have maintained health on a very high fat diet. The one thing they have in common: no crackers, chips, twinkies, etc. I think that processed foods are making people sick and fat, not too much carbohydrate or too much fat.
    gluten, or specifically gliadin, has zonulin-signaling effects that have been observed in both celiac and non-celiac populations, hence increases permeability of the epithelial lining of the gut, allowing assimilation of things into the bloodstream that don't belong there. I find the argument that avoiding wheat and other gluten-containing grains is only beneficial to those with celiac disease or non-celiac gluten sensitivity to be really weak.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    gluten, or specifically gliadin, has zonulin-signaling effects that have been observed in both celiac and non-celiac populations, hence increases permeability of the epithelial lining of the gut, allowing assimilation of things into the bloodstream that don't belong there. I find the argument that avoiding wheat and other gluten-containing grains is only beneficial to those with celiac disease or non-celiac gluten sensitivity to be really weak.
    I agree. i don't have celiac but I do not want my immune system to be chronically activated, responding to things that have passed into my blood stream that do not belong there. My immune system should not go on high alert every time I eat something. I credit this diet for reducing generalized inflammation throughout my body, which has reduced and eliminated chronic joint pain I had before. I think eliminating wheat played a part. And if it did nothing? Well, the replacement foods have so much more nutritional content I think I'm ahead no matter what calculations you do.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    I can squat 180lbs, press 72.5lbs and deadlift 185lbs

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I agree. i don't have celiac but I do not want my immune system to be chronically activated, responding to things that have passed into my blood stream that do not belong there. My immune system should not go on high alert every time I eat something. I credit this diet for reducing generalized inflammation throughout my body, which has reduced and eliminated chronic joint pain I had before. I think eliminating wheat played a part. And if it did nothing? Well, the replacement foods have so much more nutritional content I think I'm ahead no matter what calculations you do.
    In terms of risk and reward eating paleo is all reward with no risks.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I find the argument that avoiding wheat and other gluten-containing grains is only beneficial to those with celiac disease or non-celiac gluten sensitivity to be really weak.
    I would agree with this. When you look at the number of autoimmune disorders that are associated with celiac , it's clear we don't understand the full impact of gluten on the immune system. I would bet though, that for most people, simply moving gluten grains from the bottom of their food pyramid, to the very top, would have a significant impact on their health over their whole lifetime. And that sort of lifestyle is 1000x easier than that of an actual celiac, who has to worry about gluten contamination 24/7.
    50yo, 5'3"
    SW-195
    CW-125, part calorie counting, part transition to primal
    GW- Goals are no longer weight-related

  10. #60
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