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  1. #31
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    All excellent sources of nutrition and energy. Just think about how your ancestors would eat. They make use of every single portion of the animal... so skin on, bone in , fatty meat was prized! Make it the center of your meal and you really can't go too far wrong. Avocados are also excellent and very tasty. If you choose primal cuts of meat then you really don't need to add anything (butter, oil, ect....) simply because your juicy piece of meat will have enough fat in it to flavor itself.

    My simplest and most nutritious meals are still just a big hunk of fatty, bone in meat cooked over a bed of veggies. Its everything that is right with the world.
    The context of ancestral eating is an amusing thought, but it often doesn't fit in with modern day living. The problems our ancestors had was the scarcity of nutrients and calories. Body composition and image was not a concern, and foods were eaten in entirety based solely on necessity. Today, our problems are in the exact opposite direction. We suffer from an overabundance of foods. We overconsume and the famine our ancestors had never comes. Our ancestors surely prized the skin because of its fattening nature - we do not need this. Skin is primarily calories with a low nutrient-density compared to the protein-rich meat. In the context of modern day living where carrying too much fat is the issue, there is no reason to eat the skin.

    If you truly like the skin, then enjoy the skin and cut calories elsewhere. However, the whole "our ancestors did it" argument makes absolutely no sense in the context of modern-day living since our problems today are the exact opposite end of the spectrum of theirs, and employing the methods they used to fatten them up for the famine and drought season would make our lives worse.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by pabs View Post
    your reasoning is sound, choco! I have a question though:


    eating high fat and low carb seems to curb the appetite thus making it easy to sit at a caloric deficit. how would you suggest one go about setting up a deficit when high carb? I agree that being anabolic, carbs promote musculature, but wouldnt it be harder to lose fat being eating higher carb as eating carbs tend to down regulate fat metabolism
    I disagree that a high fat/low carb diet inherently curbs appetite. I think a high protein diet curbs appetite.

    What is easier to overeat? Bacon and sausage? Or steamed chicken breast? How easy is it to consume 1,000 calories of bacon versus 1,000 calories of cottage cheese? In my experience, fat promotes overconsumption when paired with protein - it is supposed to.

    It is possible that an individual may overeat while on a high carb diet. However, what I have found is it is the combination of fat and carbohydrate in unison that truly promotes the overeating. Take ice cream, for example. Mix heavy cream and eggs with no sweetener and churn it into ice cream. It's kind of gross without sweetness. Similarly, take skim milk and sugar and churn it. Also gross - an overly sweet, frozen ice brick. But mix the two and something magical happens.

    Take a fork to a stick of butter and eat. Gross. Take a spoon to a bag of white sugar. Gross. Whip the butter and sugar into icing? I bet you'll eat the whole bowl!

    It is possible you'll consume less calories on a higher fat/lower carb diet. It is possible you'll consume less calories on a lower fat/higher carb diet. You have to experiment to see what works for you. My advice is if fat loss is the goal, keep your fatty meals low carb and keep your high carb meals very low fat. When you mix the fat and carbs you tend to overeat the most.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    My advice is if fat loss is the goal, keep your fatty meals low carb and keep your high carb meals very low fat.
    I love the taste of naked butter, but I got what you're saying thanks
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by pabs View Post
    I love the taste of naked butter, but I got what you're saying thanks
    You're. It kidding, I love butter!
    But what he's saying makes a lot of sense!

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    The context of ancestral eating is an amusing thought, but it often doesn't fit in with modern day living. The problems our ancestors had was the scarcity of nutrients and calories. Body composition and image was not a concern, and foods were eaten in entirety based solely on necessity. Today, our problems are in the exact opposite direction. We suffer from an overabundance of foods. We overconsume and the famine our ancestors had never comes. Our ancestors surely prized the skin because of its fattening nature - we do not need this. Skin is primarily calories with a low nutrient-density compared to the protein-rich meat. In the context of modern day living where carrying too much fat is the issue, there is no reason to eat the skin.

    If you truly like the skin, then enjoy the skin and cut calories elsewhere. However, the whole "our ancestors did it" argument makes absolutely no sense in the context of modern-day living since our problems today are the exact opposite end of the spectrum of theirs, and employing the methods they used to fatten them up for the famine and drought season would make our lives worse.
    Actually its not just the fat that you remove when you take away the skin. Its the collagen and the gelatin and all the other constituents of the skin that work synergistically with that muscle meat you are consuming. And if you cook the whole bird then the minerals from the bone and glycine and purine and nutrition from the cartilage all permeate the finished product! This is whole food primal eating! If you deny this practice (using and eating the whole of the animal) you end up chasing your tail buying packets of knox gelatin to replace that which you should have gotten with a whole food approach like that of our ancestors. You use more butter or oil to cook with since you haven't used what was available. You eat more refined or even primal carbs for energy than you would likely need to and you create imbalance.... cause this isn't how humans evolved to eat!

    I deny the claim that our ancestors even required feast and famine to attain and maintain perfect health. Its inherent to eating the human diet. Fat, skin, bone, and all. Not all HG societies had extended or even short term famine. They hunt/gather/work like 14 hours a week and just kick back and chill the rest of the time. Agriculture F'd it all up.

    But hey... I eat Primal so maybe I'm biased.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-08-2013 at 10:40 AM.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I disagree that a high fat/low carb diet inherently curbs appetite. I think a high protein diet curbs appetite.

    What is easier to overeat? Bacon and sausage? Or steamed chicken breast? How easy is it to consume 1,000 calories of bacon versus 1,000 calories of cottage cheese? In my experience, fat promotes overconsumption when paired with protein - it is supposed to.

    It is possible that an individual may overeat while on a high carb diet. However, what I have found is it is the combination of fat and carbohydrate in unison that truly promotes the overeating. Take ice cream, for example. Mix heavy cream and eggs with no sweetener and churn it into ice cream. It's kind of gross without sweetness. Similarly, take skim milk and sugar and churn it. Also gross - an overly sweet, frozen ice brick. But mix the two and something magical happens.

    Take a fork to a stick of butter and eat. Gross. Take a spoon to a bag of white sugar. Gross. Whip the butter and sugar into icing? I bet you'll eat the whole bowl!

    It is possible you'll consume less calories on a higher fat/lower carb diet. It is possible you'll consume less calories on a lower fat/higher carb diet. You have to experiment to see what works for you. My advice is if fat loss is the goal, keep your fatty meals low carb and keep your high carb meals very low fat. When you mix the fat and carbs you tend to overeat the most.
    You're absolutely right, butter plain, I could have a little and be happy-even though I love the stuff-mix it with sugar and I could eat spoonfuls of the stuff!

    So, I'm going to take this one step further and ask about macros now. If I lower my fat intake in general due to not consuming these things mentioned, my macros will change significantly. I was about 60/25/10 ish (f,p,c) and doing pretty well weight wise (unless consuming nuts as per the original topic). I did crave sweets or starch and lack energy, thus several posts of late searching for info on how I should change to meet my dietary needs.

    I get to stay low fat when higher carb and vice verse but on lower carb days how much fat is too much? Do I just make sure to eat to satiety and not go over cals? High carb days-How much fat will promote fat storage?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by splunky View Post
    You're absolutely right, butter plain, I could have a little and be happy-even though I love the stuff-mix it with sugar and I could eat spoonfuls of the stuff!

    So, I'm going to take this one step further and ask about macros now. If I lower my fat intake in general due to not consuming these things mentioned, my macros will change significantly. I was about 60/25/10 ish (f,p,c) and doing pretty well weight wise (unless consuming nuts as per the original topic). I did crave sweets or starch and lack energy, thus several posts of late searching for info on how I should change to meet my dietary needs.

    I get to stay low fat when higher carb and vice verse but on lower carb days how much fat is too much? Do I just make sure to eat to satiety and not go over cals? High carb days-How much fat will promote fat storage?
    Why would you do anything but cut nuts out for a while and see how that works for you? You said you were doing well before, so it seems a bit silly to completely swap your macro profile because of one guy's perception of how food works.

    On a completely personal note, a high-carb diet has always been a disaster for me. Even with completely whole foods and keeping fat low, I was never sated. Given the multiple positive properties of fat (improved mood, more filling, better taste) as compared to most carbs, I say higher fat is an easy choice. I've kept off over 50lbs since I switched my diet to a high fat/no grain whole foods approach.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by accidentalpancake View Post
    Why would you do anything but cut nuts out for a while and see how that works for you? You said you were doing well before, so it seems a bit silly to completely swap your macro profile because of one guy's perception of how food works.

    On a completely personal note, a high-carb diet has always been a disaster for me. Even with completely whole foods and keeping fat low, I was never sated. Given the multiple positive properties of fat (improved mood, more filling, better taste) as compared to most carbs, I say higher fat is an easy choice. I've kept off over 50lbs since I switched my diet to a high fat/no grain whole foods approach.
    Same here, not the stats but I've lost inches, some pounds, and feel better, also I'm less hungry and have fewer cravings to eat out of boredom.

    Just stop eating the damn nuts and see how you go?

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Actually its not just the fat that you remove when you take away the skin. Its the collagen and the gelatin and all the other constituents of the skin that work synergistically with that muscle meat you are consuming. And if you cook the whole bird then the minerals from the bone and glycine and purine and nutrition from the cartilage all permeate the finished product! This is whole food primal eating! If you deny this practice (using and eating the whole of the animal) you end up chasing your tail buying packets of knox gelatin to replace that which you should have gotten with a whole food approach like that of our ancestors. You use more butter or oil to cook with since you haven't used what was available. You eat more refined or even primal carbs for energy than you would likely need to and you create imbalance.... cause this isn't how humans evolved to eat!

    I deny the claim that our ancestors even required feast and famine to attain and maintain perfect health. Its inherent to eating the human diet. Fat, skin, bone, and all.
    its interesting how both of you present opposing arguments that are competent within their own contexts. choco has a more neolithic approach to whole food that I see lot of practical merit in. I find that its often hard to get quality LCHF food when out and about but fruits are aplenty and thus tweaking the prescription paleo diet to be able to thrive on more neolithic whole food makes sense.

    neckhammer has a more orthodox view of paleo which I also agree with. I see your problem, nh, with halfing whole foods as it usually compromises the micronutrional value of the food.
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  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by accidentalpancake View Post
    Why would you do anything but cut nuts out for a while and see how that works for you? You said you were doing well before, so it seems a bit silly to completely swap your macro profile because of one guy's perception of how food works.

    On a completely personal note, a high-carb diet has always been a disaster for me. Even with completely whole foods and keeping fat low, I was never sated. Given the multiple positive properties of fat (improved mood, more filling, better taste) as compared to most carbs, I say higher fat is an easy choice. I've kept off over 50lbs since I switched my diet to a high fat/no grain whole foods approach.
    I am not changing in completely just on the knowledge you have shared. While I am definitely cutting out nuts/seeds, I am also carb cycling which is new to me. I am doing this as of last wk and today is my 2nd high(er) carb day. I am remaining lower carb for 5 days and hire carb on the 2 days of intense exercise. Hoping this will mix it up for my body and help with fatigue etc. but thx for your concern

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