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Thread: What Were Your Top 5 Newbie Lifter Mistakes? page 7

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    This is my advice.

    There is no finish line, you aren't in a race, getting stronger is a journey with no specific destination.
    I agree with this

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    In light of this, get to know rest. It is where the magic happens. The weights are just an input, the resting is where you build muscle.
    and this...

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Many lifters don't rest enough, most lift again after their body has recovered 100% ability, after the soreness passes. But our bodies aren't that dumb, it is evolutionarily smart to recover ability very quickly incase we need to sprint from that lion again tomorrow, our bodies do this fantastically well. So after a massive taxing lift session we "can" be back in the gym a few days later, but.....

    We aren't trying to get back to 100% ability, we want to get "stronger", we are trying to increase our ability. This takes far longer to achieve. We need to sit around at 100% recovered for days waiting for our bodies to get us to 102% recovered (wahoo we're now stronger).

    Our bodies muscle building process takes far longer than its recovery from stress process.
    aaaannd you've lost me


    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    To simplify; lift big, note recovery time, rest a further amount equal to or longer than recovery time.
    I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff. The best knowledge we have on the subject is based on Selye's theory of supercompensation. Here's a nice article that outlines it.

    Training with Purpose: Limiting Stress

    Sounds like you're advocating the fifth scenario, here labeled "Supercompensation null"

    If the programming is too conservative and there is infrequent or insufficient stimulus, supercompensation will be kept at a minimum or won’t occur at all.
    emphasis added

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post

    I'm not sure where you're getting this stuff. The best knowledge we have on the subject is based on Selye's theory of supercompensation. Here's a nice article that outlines it.

    Training with Purpose: Limiting Stress

    Sounds like you're advocating the fifth scenario, here labeled "Supercompensation null"
    For super compensation to happen two processes need to engage.

    The first being recovery, after a stress event, our muscles need to repair minor damage, refill with glycogen, eliminate waste etc quickly. This is an evolutionary smart thing to do as it gets us back online quickly ready to face stresses (lions) again. The time frame for this process could be from seconds to a few days depending on the severity of the stress.

    Once we are "functional" again (ie recovered, feeling 100%, whatever) our bodies then go to work super compensating, this is the second process, new muscle tissue genesis happens here (incase the next lion is faster than the previous one). It is a long slow process taking many days in some cases ,depending on the severity of the stress faced.

    Many lifters get back in the gym after the first process (ie they have recovered), Thus ruining their chances of building muscle with the second process. Initially in the noob stage any protocol works well because they can both recover and build muscle in the couple of days rest the protocol gives them. Not long tho as the stressors are increased the time taken to complete the two processes starts going over the protocols "allowed" rest period. Muscle building stops and stalls/ injuries ensue. But when pressed they are adamant they're not overtraining because they still feel 100%. they don't realise feeling 100% is not stronger than 100% of last week. you want to feel 102% you doofus's. That additional 2% takes as long or longer than getting back to the 100%.

    The other point to note is that when the severity of any stress is increased there comes a point when cell or organism destruction ensues. The closer the stress comes to this threshold the more our body super compensates. So yes you can lift not heavy enough. The super compensation can also happen infrequently enough that any gains made will be lost again as the body prioritises survival (don't need to spend resources fuelling things we don't use).

    What I advocate is neither of these. I lift big, I push close to cell destruction (injury, exhaustion) to get the biggest effect. Then I wait until my body has both recovered (process 1) and adapted (process 2) to this stress and maybe a few extra days for good measure, then I do it all again. This way is so close to optimal it isn't even funny, compared to the work every body else is doing in the gym.



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  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    For super compensation to happen two processes need to engage.

    The first being recovery, after a stress event, our muscles need to repair minor damage, refill with glycogen, eliminate waste etc quickly. This is an evolutionary smart thing to do as it gets us back online quickly ready to face stresses (lions) again. The time frame for this process could be from seconds to a few days depending on the severity of the stress.

    Once we are "functional" again (ie recovered, feeling 100%, whatever) our bodies then go to work super compensating, this is the second process, new muscle tissue genesis happens here (incase the next lion is faster than the previous one). It is a long slow process taking many days in some cases ,depending on the severity of the stress faced.

    Many lifters get back in the gym after the first process (ie they have recovered), Thus ruining their chances of building muscle with the second process. Initially in the noob stage any protocol works well because they can both recover and build muscle in the couple of days rest the protocol gives them. Not long tho as the stressors are increased the time taken to complete the two processes starts going over the protocols "allowed" rest period. Muscle building stops and stalls/ injuries ensue. But when pressed they are adamant they're not overtraining because they still feel 100%. they don't realise feeling 100% is not stronger than 100% of last week. you want to feel 102% you doofus's. That additional 2% takes as long or longer than getting back to the 100%.

    The other point to note is that when the severity of any stress is increased there comes a point when cell or organism destruction ensues. The closer the stress comes to this threshold the more our body super compensates. So yes you can lift not heavy enough. The super compensation can also happen infrequently enough that any gains made will be lost again as the body prioritises survival (don't need to spend resources fuelling things we don't use).

    What I advocate is neither of these. I lift big, I push close to cell destruction (injury, exhaustion) to get the biggest effect. Then I wait until my body has both recovered (process 1) and adapted (process 2) to this stress and maybe a few extra days for good measure, then I do it all again. This way is so close to optimal it isn't even funny, compared to the work every body else is doing in the gym.



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    Are we not debating this issue in a thread for "newbie" (hence, by definition "novice") lifters? Yeah, there comes a point where the gains come slower and periodization of stress is necessary to maximize strength gains. That doesn't apply to 95%+ of the population ever.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Are we not debating this issue in a thread for "newbie" (hence, by definition "novice") lifters? Yeah, there comes a point where the gains come slower and periodization of stress is necessary to maximize strength gains. That doesn't apply to 95%+ of the population ever.
    Op is very likely not a newbie (lifting newbie maybe, not strength newbie) considering all the BW stuff she said she was doing.

    "That doesn't apply to 95%+ of the population ever" - is utter bullshit. 95% of lifters hit stalls or get injured and would therefore do well, to do more super compensation resting. That is a far more likely statement then yours.

    If your doing a lifting protocol that has rigid rest periods, its a piece of crap. It doesn't fit with the mechanics of stress and adaptation. Yes this includes SS.


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  5. #65
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    1. Not thinking about breathing. Once I set a specific breath pattern and timing for each lift, I could immediately tack 5+lbs onto my PRs. And also I stopped passing out after squats
    2. Everyone else has said this, but shoes. I have Rogue do-wins and doing squats/oly without them is basically in the "fucking around" category, at least for me.
    3. Like someone else said, hook grip! Make friends with it early, use it for life. It hurts and feels awful at first but it is essential.
    4. I spent probably two months working on cleans without forcing my elbows up in a proper rack position, because doing so hurt. Those two months were a complete waste. Get your elbows UP by any means necessary. It's impossible to do a real clean otherwise. I still see people doing the funny reverse-bicep-curl thing, catching the bar in a starfish pose, calling it a clean, and then wondering why they're stalled at some ridiculously low weight like 100lbs or whatever. Guess what, it's because you're not actually doing a clean!
    5. Alternate perspective on the "eat more" chant... When I started I took it to heart and started eating a lot more protein and carbs. I gained muscle, but also gained too much fat. If you're female, you might want to just slightly raise calories week by week until you hit a point where you're gaining fat (not just weight: fat; know the difference) and then pull back a bit to ensure you're not just packing on pounds mindlessly. If you're a guy, well... eat whatever you want. It seems to me like men are mysterious creatures who can eat piles of food, put on piles of muscle, and stay ripped, effortlessly.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Op is very likely not a newbie (lifting newbie maybe, not strength newbie) considering all the BW stuff she said she was doing.
    False dichotomy. If she's a novice lifter, she can recover in very short amounts of time. If she's lifting a significant percentage of her genetic potential, then different periodization is appropriate, but I doubt you could name 5 people who reached that point doing bodyweight work only. In fact, I'd be shocked if you could name 1.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    "That doesn't apply to 95%+ of the population ever" - is utter bullshit. 95% of lifters hit stalls or get injured and would therefore do well, to do more super compensation resting. That is a far more likely statement then yours.
    You're claiming things that aren't supported in the literature. Injury from strength training is among the lowest of any sport. Most people hit stalls because they don't program for progressive overload. And I said 95% of the population never get past the novice stage, not 95% of the gym-going population (although I've been to gyms where far less than 1% of the members were doing anything resembling a serious strength-training program).

    Yes, more serious lifters hit stalls because they run out of the ability to recover as quickly as novice lifters can, but like I said, <5% of the population ever undertakes a serious training plan that gets them to this point. And this certainly doesn't appear on the surface of things to be the case for the OP.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    If your doing a lifting protocol that has rigid rest periods, its a piece of crap. It doesn't fit with the mechanics of stress and adaptation. Yes this includes SS.
    Again, this is wildly speculative and based on exactly no evidence or clearly elucidated theory of the mechanisms of what you call recovery and supercompensation.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    False dichotomy. If she's a novice lifter, she can recover in very short amounts of time. If she's lifting a significant percentage of her genetic potential, then different periodization is appropriate, but I doubt you could name 5 people who reached that point doing bodyweight work only. In fact, I'd be shocked if you could name 1.



    You're claiming things that aren't supported in the literature. Injury from strength training is among the lowest of any sport. Most people hit stalls because they don't program for progressive overload. And I said 95% of the population never get past the novice stage, not 95% of the gym-going population (although I've been to gyms where far less than 1% of the members were doing anything resembling a serious strength-training program).

    Yes, more serious lifters hit stalls because they run out of the ability to recover as quickly as novice lifters can, but like I said, <5% of the population ever undertakes a serious training plan that gets them to this point. And this certainly doesn't appear on the surface of things to be the case for the OP.



    Again, this is wildly speculative and based on exactly no evidence or clearly elucidated theory of the mechanisms of what you call recovery and supercompensation.
    The OP was asking for our N=1 advice, I gave it, we don't need to site studies to do that do we? Any way the basis of my claims comes from a book written by Nassim Taleb (anti fragile), this book introduces an idea that is BRAND EFFING NEW, wich is why you have your knickers in a knot because you probably haven't read it.

    If I was to say less than 50% the people who attempted to summit Everest succeeded. Would you then argue that 99.999 percent of the population has failed to climb Everest. It's what your doing in your statement, your including all the people who don't go to the gym or go there for the excercise bikes, in your statistical analysis. It might make your statements sound good but those people are irrelevant.
    We are talking the people of the population who lift heavy (the 5%), of them, many will face stalls, poor strength progression for the effort expended & some injuries, this isn't just 5 year veterans, this is everybody that starts lifting big.

    There already is a few dudes on here who are starting to understand the same concepts I do. Vick and neckhammer are 2 that come to mind. So you can keep your head in the "old" books or join in with the ripple that will soon be a tidal wave of non/semi serious lifters getting great results for minimal effort. Any way sorry OP, maybe we should fire up our own thread for this discussion.


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  8. #68
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    Dilberry .....you and RM should should move this discussion to the Evolution of exercise thread that Vick got going. I'm running a HIT routine right now. I've actually been on one form of HIT or another for near 2 years now. Good results, but I've done the 5x/week thing in the past too. I can't ignore those getting results with both ends of the spectrum and everything inbetween. Sure I can elaborate on MY reasons, but lets go to the other thread to hash it out. God forbid, I think Gorbag may even have some decent input

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    God forbid, I think Gorbag may even have some decent input
    Blasphemy!!!

  10. #70
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    I only skimmed the first few pages but saw lots of recs for lifting shoes. If you are toying with the idea of getting some check this brand out:

    Wei-Rui | MAXbarbell LLC

    I went with a pair of these as my first lifting shoes to save a little $. I love them.

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