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Thread: Carbohydrate Requirements - How much do you need? page 3

  1. #21
    picklepete's Avatar
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    My pet theory is that the water fraction is a big deal. Folks eat defective dry food, lose health, and blame the effect on glucose. Bread, pasta, granola, cereal, popcorn, and crackers have horrifyingly high kcal/pound (more than any steak or egg) so if satiety is influenced by stomach weight those foods will lead to gross energy excess.

    By contrast I do not restrict the following foods: potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, parsnips, taro, cassava, lotus root, burdock root, squashes (butternut, kabocha, acorn), plantains, breadfruit, chestnuts, acorns (Korean “dotori”), berries, citrus, melons, stone fruits (nectarines, cherries, apricots), tropical fruit, pears, apples, grapes. I do measure and minimize tapioca flour, dates, honey, etc.

    Despite not restricting, when I examine the menu I virtually never exceed 150g carbohydrate in a day just following my appetite. Average is closer to 100g. This is low-carb by USDA standards and lower-carb than any national average on the planet. Am I unusual? Who knows, but this approach gives me a lot of serenity.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by picklepete View Post

    By contrast I do not restrict the following foods: potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, parsnips, taro, cassava, lotus root, burdock root, squashes (butternut, kabocha, acorn), plantains, breadfruit, chestnuts, acorns (Korean “dotori”), berries, citrus, melons, stone fruits (nectarines, cherries, apricots), tropical fruit, pears, apples, grapes. I do measure and minimize tapioca flour, dates, honey, etc.

    Despite not restricting, when I examine the menu I virtually never exceed 150g carbohydrate in a day just following my appetite. Average is closer to 100g. This is low-carb by USDA standards and lower-carb than any national average on the planet. Am I unusual? Who knows, but this approach gives me a lot of serenity.
    Yes, its difficult to exceed 150 gms of carbs without a concentrated effort, especially if you stick to a typical Paleo/Primal diet of meat, poultry, fish, eggs, veg and some fruit.
    Last edited by canuck416; 07-28-2013 at 01:08 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by picklepete View Post
    My pet theory is that the water fraction is a big deal. Folks eat defective dry food, lose health, and blame the effect on glucose. Bread, pasta, granola, cereal, popcorn, and crackers have horrifyingly high kcal/pound (more than any steak or egg) so if satiety is influenced by stomach weight those foods will lead to gross energy excess.

    By contrast I do not restrict the following foods: potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, parsnips, taro, cassava, lotus root, burdock root, squashes (butternut, kabocha, acorn), plantains, breadfruit, chestnuts, acorns (Korean “dotori”), berries, citrus, melons, stone fruits (nectarines, cherries, apricots), tropical fruit, pears, apples, grapes. I do measure and minimize tapioca flour, dates, honey, etc.

    Despite not restricting, when I examine the menu I virtually never exceed 150g carbohydrate in a day just following my appetite. Average is closer to 100g. This is low-carb by USDA standards and lower-carb than any national average on the planet. Am I unusual? Who knows, but this approach gives me a lot of serenity.


    Tends to converge with the acellular carbs hypothesis.

  4. #24
    John Watson's Avatar
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    Thanks for the link!! Great info!

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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Tends to converge with the acellular carbs hypothesis.
    Not to derail the thread too much, but that hypothesis doesn't account for non-obese traditional populations that use sago as their staple starch. The whole paper in general is a pretty big mess. Example:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Spreadbury
    Severe caloric restriction for 8 weeks with a diet of refined-liquid meal-replacement formula supplemented with some vegetables (510 kcal Optifast with vegetables to a total of 600 kcal per day) was reported to normalize beta-cell function and insulin sensitivity in a small group of type II diabetics (<4 years from diagnosis).107 This represents an intake of acellular carbohydrates of around 237 kcal per day (the liquid diet was 46.4% carbohydrate), which might represent a sufficient reduction to avoid adverse metabolic microbial effects.
    I've read that study, and the improvement in beta-cell function was associated with reduced ectopic fat (lipotoxicity) as a result of the severe caloric restriction, yet Spreadbury presented it as support for a low carbohydrate paleo diet.

    Anyhow... that's a good article about carbohydrate requirements. Thanks for sharing.

  6. #26
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    This article reminds me alot of mark's "carb curve" that gets severely lambasted on these forums, just lyle doesn't really go into fat-loss regarding the carb partitioning, more of a 'go with what works for you'.

    In light of this, alot of people plonk themselves somewhere along this range and stay there. In fact 3 distinct "camps" have kind of formed that most primal dieters align to and fight about. They are low, medium and high carb eating (duh). Unless you have a specific need to be in one of these camps (like keto for epilepsy and cancer control), I believe it is less than optimal to align with one specific carb eating "camp". The optimal way to eat carbs in my books is to "eat the range" and be in all the camps cyclically over a week or fortnight. A few brief reasons for this are;

    *gene expression, ancient man for millions of years, would've had a very fluctuating range of macro and cal amounts that he ate on a daily/weekly basis.
    *our bodies tend to suffer chronically if we don't give body systems a rest. sitting at one end of the carb spectrum means one metabolic glucose processing system is not getting used while the other is constantly used.(once again, don't flame me if you need to align with a camp to alleviate serious conditions).

    but yeah, lyle is a good goto for base nutritional or metabolic knowledge.
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    A few brief reasons for this are;

    *gene expression, ancient man for millions of years, would've had a very fluctuating range of macro and cal amounts that he ate on a daily/weekly basis.
    *our bodies tend to suffer chronically if we don't give body systems a rest. sitting at one end of the carb spectrum means one metabolic glucose processing system is not getting used while the other is constantly used.(once again, don't flame me if you need to align with a camp to alleviate serious conditions).

    but yeah, lyle is a good goto for base nutritional or metabolic knowledge.
    Very much agree, well said!

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    Not to derail the thread too much, but that hypothesis doesn't account for non-obese traditional populations that use sago as their staple starch. The whole paper in general is a pretty big mess. Example:

    I've read that study, and the improvement in beta-cell function was associated with reduced ectopic fat (lipotoxicity) as a result of the severe caloric restriction, yet Spreadbury presented it as support for a low carbohydrate paleo diet.
    To be fair, I was presenting that study and suggesting that food effects upon the upper GI microbiota may be an alternative explanation to the conventional one (that I believe you're referring to). This was compared with the similar effects of an ad libitum ancestral-style diet, where that conventional explanation was much less likely to apply, but the microbiome-refinement hypothesis still held. Which is a perfectly fair point to make as part of hypothesis formation.

    Regarding sago, there seems to be a dose-response relationship involved between refinement and metabolic and health outcomes. Most bread-eating Westerners were not obese until we really pushed the industrialisation and refinement of food to new heights in the late 20th century. The sago eaters likely still have plenty of whole foods in their diet, but, like 1900s Europeans, I suspect it is unlikely they have hunter-gatherer or Kitavan levels of metabolic and inflammatory health despite their leanness.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ian Spreadbury View Post
    Regarding sago, there seems to be a dose-response relationship involved between refinement and metabolic and health outcomes. Most bread-eating Westerners were not obese until we really pushed the industrialisation and refinement of food to new heights in the late 20th century. The sago eaters likely still have plenty of whole foods in their diet, but, like 1900s Europeans, I suspect it is unlikely they have hunter-gatherer or Kitavan levels of metabolic and inflammatory health despite their leanness.
    With regard to carbohydrate refinement in general, where do societies that eat a large amount of polished rice fit into your theory? I've noticed in the West we're obsessed over arguing over the wholeness of the grain, but there are many asian cultures that eat a large amount of refined grain and achieve much better health.

  10. #30
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    Lyle also says: if you have a sweet tooth, eat some artificially sweetened jello (on low carb days). Lyle is very much into chemistry games. I dunno, for me Lyle is an alternative to Paleo. I see paleo as natural eating, while Lyle's as highly constructed and artificial. His approaches can be extreme. They get results. And they are hard to achieve without aids of artificial foods.
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