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Thread: What are the real weight loss benefits of going primal? page 10

  1. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    So what do you recommend people do when they slash calories to really low levels and still can not lose. By low, I mean 1200 and lower for moderately active people. It's not an uncommon scenario. And if you keep cutting, you keep making life even worse, metabolically. By virtue of CICO there are women staying fat with hours of cardio and below 1000 calorie a day diets.
    That's an urban myth...
    Being just an old fashioned guy myself; I’m beyond tired of all these fragile mama boys (and girls!) with powder in their gluteus and soft pillows under their arm pits that cannot recover from their 3 days a week abbreviated “strength” routine…

  2. #92
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    That's an urban myth...
    I wish it was. I lived that way for a long time (OK, not below 1000 calories long term but in that 1200-1400 calorie range with a shit ton of cardio on the side). I'm not sure how I could have cut down the calories even more, but if I had, I'm sure it would have done a fine job helping me lose muscle. I did some cycling of 200-400-600-800-1000-1200 calorie days and they did help lose maybe 4-5 lbs of water and muscle, but not fat.

    I think more women do need to consider the concept of gaining muscle instead of decreasing weight, but CICO doesn't support that idea because I think it fails to consider that there are people that need to increase their metabolism in order not to be malnourished. I'm curious as to what the minimum calorie count is required to insure that you have all the nutrients etc. that you need.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    So what do you recommend people do when they slash calories to really low levels and still can not lose. By low, I mean 1200 and lower for moderately active people. It's not an uncommon scenario. And if you keep cutting, you keep making life even worse, metabolically. By virtue of CICO there are women staying fat with hours of cardio and below 1000 calorie a day diets. Should they cut more calories?

    I know what is working for me, (add muscle, throw out the scale, eat more). But I'm super lucky in that adding muscle for me is really easy.
    1.) Become nutritionally replete, particularly in fat soluble vitamins. Most people are deficient in them, which has a negative effect on the metabolic rate. I'm talking specifically Vitamin A (palmitate/retinol, NOT beta carotene), Vitamin K2, Vitamin D, copper, selenium, magnesium. Good foods are grassfed dairy and pastured eggs. Good supplements are a Vitamin D 5000 IU softgels packed in MCT's or stearate (Country Life makes a great one I'd recommend), niacinamide and magnesium citrate before bed. I wouldn't mess with too much else on the supplement front.

    2.) Get your thyroid checked. And by that, I mean NOT a TSH test. That is useless - TSH is produced by the pituitary gland and tells little about thyroid function. Test your T3/T4/rT3 and TSH. I am more concerned whether or not your body is properly converting T4 into active T3. I don't want you to fall in the "normal" range. I want you to be at the very top to out of range on the high side because the average American is hypothyroid, so falling in the "normal" range makes you "normally hypothyroid." Consider taking a natural dessicated thyroid supplement like Raw Thyroid. Vitacost also makes a Thyroid Complex that's decent, although it is not gluten-free.

    3.) Consider taking dried kelp pills as well for iodine, especially if you don't use iodized salt.

    4.) Get off your ass! LIFT! No, not 5 lb dumbbells. Deadlift. Squat. Benchpress. Do chin-ups AND pull-ups. Can you do more than 8 repetitions? Then add more weight, it isn't heavy enough. Start sprinting. Your body isn't designed to sit at a desk all day in front of a computer. It is designed to chase after buffalo, run from saber-toothed tigers and carry 5 watermelons 5 miles back to your tribe with a baby on your back in the 100 degree heat. Doing these things will greatly increase your insulin sensitivity, glucose tolerance and control and greatly change your body composition over time even at the exact same weight. I weigh 15 lbs less than when I started going Primal, yet I eat more food and can deadlift 150 pounds MORE. Why? My muscle density increased dramatically and my daily calorie expenditure is higher even though I am 2.5 years older and 10% lighter. You can do this, too!

    5.) Cycle your carbohydrate and fat. Eat more fat and less carbs on days you're sedentary. On these days, do lower level cardio. Walk, jog, ride a bike, play basketball/tennis/swim/golf. Whatever you enjoy. Just get out and move. Eat less fat and more carbs on days you're lifting heavy. These are the days you can exploit your glycogen stores to store your carbohydrate allowing you to consume larger meals and promote muscle growth without worrying about fat spillover. Lifting heavy also maximizes insulin sensitivity. Having high carb days and low carb days allow you to maximize insulin sensitivity (low carb diets promote insulin resistance) while giving you periods of running on fats to allow efficient metabolism of less ATP-rich free fatty acids.

    6.) Get more sleep and more sun. Seriously, we all need to work on this one I bet.

    7.) Calorie cycle. This is INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT. You can't maintain a deficit 100% of the time. Have 5 lower calorie days followed by 2 higher calorie days coming in at a net deficit. If you constantly maintain a deficit, your body will adjust to that lower calorie intake and you won't be able to maintain that deficit overtime.

    Those seven steps are a fantastic way to maximizing your total daily energy expenditure (TDEE), maximizing fat loss efficiency. The reason why people stop losing weight is they cut calories more and more, so they wind up crushing their energy levels. Their body adjusts to lower calorie intake, and it slows down - they have less energy, naturally move around less, their thyroid slows, testosterone drops, insulin sensitivity drops, stress hormones increase, etc. Eventually, the metabolic rate drops so low you can't maintain a deficit and any time you overeat you just pile on fat.

    Maximizing nutrient density through a proper diet, cycling your carbohydrate to maintain thyroid function, ensuring you get enough sleep and sunlight and maximizing anabolic hormones through heavy lifting will give you the optimal environment to lose weight and make a calorie deficit much easier to maintain.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-23-2013 at 11:19 AM.
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  4. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post

    This is how to actually track calories:
    - 154g whole egg, raw
    - 9g butter
    - 120g apple, raw
    - 72g bacon

    Do you own a food scale and weigh everything, especially your cooking fats?
    This. I was astounded by how much I underestimated calorie totals. For 3 days running, I did actually weigh everything.

    I found that I underestimated the amount of cooking fat by hundreds of calories a day. So, since I typically cook with similar amounts of fat, I have changed how I estimate totals. It's more accurate now, for sure, but still a far site from perfect. There are too many variables.
    Height: 5' 10"
    Starting Weight: 292
    Starting Primal Weight: 275
    Current weight: 224
    Goal weight: 172
    Body Fat 30.5

  5. #95
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    See Choco.... all your advice= GREAT. But a lot more to it than CICO, no?

    Most people don't read "It is simple, you are overeating" and think, geez, go pump iron, get the thyroid checked, overeat on occasion, focus on foods like dairy and eggs, no long range calorie restriction and sleep.

    Most people think "hmmm, I'm eating too much, so let's knock off another 200 calories by skipping cream in my coffee and eating one less egg".

    Your last message is a far cry from "Hey, if you aren't losing weight, you are underestimating the calories in your bacon". You're a smart guy and I have 100% faith in that program because I follow it and it is working for me. But guess what- it has just about nothing to do with CICO so when you simplify the above message to that, you contradict yourself.

    Those six steps are a fantastic way to maximizing your total daily energy expenditure (TDEE), maximizing fat loss efficiency. The reason why people stop losing weight is they cut calories more and more, so they wind up crushing their energy levels. Their body adjusts to lower calorie intake, and it slows down - they have less energy, naturally move around less, their thyroid slows, testosterone drops, insulin sensitivity drops, stress hormones increase, etc. Eventually, the metabolic rate drops so low you can't maintain a deficit and any time you overeat you just pile on fat.
    So you just very elegantly above stated why CICO actually DOES NOT work for long term weightloss in a lot of people.

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  6. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    See Choco.... all your advice= GREAT. But a lot more to it than CICO, no?

    Most people don't read "It is simple, you are overeating" and think, geez, go pump iron, get the thyroid checked, overeat on occasion, focus on foods like dairy and eggs, no long range calorie restriction and sleep.

    Most people think "hmmm, I'm eating too much, so let's knock off another 200 calories by skipping cream in my coffee and eating one less egg".

    Your last message is a far cry from "Hey, if you aren't losing weight, you are underestimating the calories in your bacon". You're a smart guy and I have 100% faith in that program because I follow it and it is working for me. But guess what- it has just about nothing to do with CICO so when you simplify the above message to that, you contradict yourself.



    So you just very elegantly above stated why CICO actually DOES NOT work for long term weightloss in a lot of people.
    But it is CICO. The problem is people don't understand CICO. They don't understand what their 'CO' is, they don't understand how to maximize their 'CO' and they're wildly off when measuring their 'CI.' It is annoying for me to see people state that CICO doesn't work when the problem is them, and it leads to the creation of myths like "calories don't count, carbs do." Carbohydrate has nothing to do with weight loss or weight gain. It is, in fact, less "fattening" than dietary fat because it must be converted and slightly raises your metabolism where fat generally does not. CICO is absolutely perfect. The problem is on the human end.
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  7. #97
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    It is annoying for me to see people state that CICO doesn't work when the problem is them, and it leads to the creation of myths like "calories don't count, carbs do."
    OK, but when you read the problem is "you", most people ONLY read that as a function of willpower and it doesn't occur to them to eat more, lift more, get a thyroid check. None of what you suggested really cried out "eat less" as the solution. You had half dozen alternatives to reducing CI by increasing CO without resorting to more cardio.

    I agree, if you are eating 3000 calories of fat and protein sitting on your ass wondering why you are still fat because only "carbs count".... well, CICO does matter to a degree.

    And I fully disagree- after you eat low carb when you add carbs back in, you do gain weight. Period. End of story. But it's not necessarily fat. But it freaks people out.

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  8. #98
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    CICO is not a diet anyway, but the mechanism behind all diet's… The weight gain from adding carbs due to water weight and added stools may very well freak people out because they generally lack knowledge of what is going on in their bodies. It is pretty hard physically and mentally to strip off stored fat from the body though, but some people are just too ignorant in losing weight permanently, and believe that their metabolism must be “broken” or similar nonsense. Many people even seem to believe that there is magic involved in weight loss…
    Being just an old fashioned guy myself; I’m beyond tired of all these fragile mama boys (and girls!) with powder in their gluteus and soft pillows under their arm pits that cannot recover from their 3 days a week abbreviated “strength” routine…

  9. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    And I fully disagree- after you eat low carb when you add carbs back in, you do gain weight. Period. End of story. But it's not necessarily fat. But it freaks people out.
    Sure, there will be around a 3-5 lb increase in phantom weight from water and glycogen. Funny thing is it actually makes you look leaner since all it does is make the muscles "pop" a bit more. Where people around here screw up is they just "add carbs." Taking all your normal meals and adding potatoes and fruit is a great way to gain actual fat. You must switch out dietary fat for dietary carbs. Again, that's human error though.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  10. #100
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    Yup, but for those of us that get CICO, even when you keep calories stable, you get that weight bump, which like I said, freaks people out and makes one think OMG carbs are evil. But mostly, no one tells you any of this shit. Even Mark Sisson.

    Now I have bumped up my calories in the process of adding carbs, but I work out much, much more than a year ago.

    I think the other challenge to weight loss is judging the impact of actions. You really do just have to rely on the mirror or clothes fit to have a clue.

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