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Thread: How am I still not fat adapted?! page 8

  1. #71
    Knifegill's Avatar
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    You should have made this caveat when you wrote the original post. Of course you will see vast improvements if you go from completely horrible and inadequate nutrition and no exercise to quality nutrition and exercise. No one is arguing against this.
    Not sure if you are apologizing or genuflecting, but I'll accept either.


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  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knifegill View Post
    Not sure if you are apologizing or genuflecting, but I'll accept either.
    Lol, neither.
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    If you've found an easy way for this to be done, outside of complete beginners, please bless us with your knowledge.
    This might be a quiet little corner of the forums to drop my fitness theory bombs, you JJ and NH and knifegill are fairly free thinkin dudes, so you's might give be able to give em some consideration.

    I think most of the CW fitness protocols these days come from pro lifters/ bodybuilders tweaking and refining over the last 30 years. In regards to "you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time" that statement has definitely come out of those camps. The reason is by eating big you gain (IMO) probably about 10%-20% better muscle building results over some one who doesn't. so naturally all the pro's tried to keep up with each other and they all ate big one thing lead to another until... today you get most pro and amateurs alike thinking that you "HAVE" to eat big to build muscle, I think this is false, it is only makes hypertrophy faster, not impossible.

    Another big factor in ones ability to burn fat while building muscle (IMO) is also due to pro level protocols permeating down into CW and amateur protocols. What i believe is today about 90% of amateur lifters/builders lift far to often. from my N=1 and abit of other knowledge seeking, it seems to me that; despite the particular event that caused us to hypertrophy , the building of new muscle happens at exactly the same speed. the only difference comes in how long your body builds muscle for, after an event. to illustrate if i get down and do twenty pushups (about my limit) my body might build muscle for a day after after it has recovered. If i do 3 massive reps of as much as i can handle in a bench press after recovery I might build muscle for 5 days after. tho in both of these cases I believe the muscle is built at the same speed, for the big Bench Press you get more muscle because your body built for longer.
    So in a week we have a finite muscle building amount regardless of stress input or recovery time. If you've given your body a big stress event that caused it to build muscle for the whole week, adding more stress events won't build that muscle any faster, all you are doing is giving your self is a large requirement for extra calories. I also believe in this case, recovery time and time building muscle after the stress event can be vastly different. ie you might recover from the big bench press set after 2 days and could do it again after those 2 days without chronic troubles, but for that same event, muscle building might still be going on after a week.
    So here we end up with lots of amateurs lifting all week, causing their bodies to go wild on the calories,wich then has a negative effect on fat loss, and still only building muscle at a certain speed.

    This is my N=1. I do a big event (really tax my body) for each muscle group (push, pull, legs) usually on or around the same day and that's it. For the rest of the week I stick my feet up and relax. Usually for a few days after the big lifts, while im recovering from them, I eat big because my body forces me to (to replenish). After about 2-3 days is up, I'm fully recovered and could go again with more lifts, but I don't, I just sit around because I know I'm still building muscle behind the scenes. In this window, after I've recovered and before the end of the week, I muck around with calories and fasts, if I feel like losing fat that week. so at the end of the week I can end up gaining muscle and losing fat. The only thing is I'm probably not building as fast as other more serious amateurs but i don't think it is by much, I also don't know how much of a noob lifter I am, been mucking around for six months and can still lose fat and gain muscle if I want to.
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  4. #74
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    Okay, sorry. Just trying to help really. Let's leave it at me sharing my n=1 experience. It was quite horrid taking to my bed on a regular basis due to low energy. I dropped my friends. My basal temps were in the 96 range. I had crippling menstrual cramps. Then i ate primal carbs again, and my temps went up, my cramps went to a tolerable level and I have friends again. You decide what right my dear, just listen to what your body is telling you.

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  5. #75
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    Also I agree with my frienemy, you should read this. Out explains both our viewpoints http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

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  6. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoreyTK View Post
    Ketogenic diets are highly diuretic so chances are you're low on electrolytes. Try drinking some full sodium broth, eat some salted avocados or increase your salt intake in some other form.

    Here is a good link about salt intake on ketogenic diets. Get your salt! : General Low-Carb Forum : Active Low-Carber Forums

    Good luck!
    coconut water contains the full range of electrolytes

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Katie14 View Post
    I know you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
    That isn't an absolute fact for everyone - it's quiet and I'm bored so I'll tell you a story.

    In the late 90's I got a fractured skull with concussion and periodic vomiting & nausea from the head injury that lasted for weeks, I lost a shedload of body-fat and other good stuff (doc advised me to supplement electrolytes with Dioralyte after every vomming ep) and the one thing that held me together during that period was doing physio on the wrist I'd also broken, I went from using tins of food at the start to using handweights and I gained visibly greater muscle mass across my upper body, and especially forearms, despite having the kind of food relationship that would make any normal person cry.

    I gained muscle while losing inches of fat off my belly, boobs and thighs, to the extent of looking almost gaunt, and not being anywhere near a healthy diet since all I could stomach to eat was fruit & nut chocolate, and cheddar, for weeks on end. It was a long time ago but I estimate most days I was only getting 1200 - 1500 calories per day, where 2300 is about my normal maintenance amount, the cheese I was eating was low-fat and I was sneaking a lump or two of chocolate past the nausea every few hours.

    Magneto hasn't called so I assume I'm not some total mutant, and I wasn't eating any special protein balance or anything, the fat came back on when I started being able to keep regular food down and the nausea faded, and I went back to eating what was then my normal diet (low- to medium-fat vegetarian) but the vastly improved muscle tone has remained to this day.

    Anyway, dire nutritional choices, regular vomiting, drip-drip-drip of regular sugar and veg fats, and I still gained muscle despite ongoing and quite scary weightloss.

    While I'd maybe have gained more muscle if I'd been eating steak and veggies, I don't think our bodies possess a switching mechanism to tell them NOT to repair and grow a muscle that's been exercised just because we're dieting - it goes against evolutionary common sense that your body would halt a pro-survival mechanism in a prolonged caloric deficit, which was a frequent state for our ancestors.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    This might be a quiet little corner of the forums to drop my fitness theory bombs, you JJ and NH and knifegill are fairly free thinkin dudes, so you's might give be able to give em some consideration.

    I think most of the CW fitness protocols these days come from pro lifters/ bodybuilders tweaking and refining over the last 30 years. In regards to "you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time" that statement has definitely come out of those camps. The reason is by eating big you gain (IMO) probably about 10%-20% better muscle building results over some one who doesn't. so naturally all the pro's tried to keep up with each other and they all ate big one thing lead to another until... today you get most pro and amateurs alike thinking that you "HAVE" to eat big to build muscle, I think this is false, it is only makes hypertrophy faster, not impossible.

    Another big factor in ones ability to burn fat while building muscle (IMO) is also due to pro level protocols permeating down into CW and amateur protocols. What i believe is today about 90% of amateur lifters/builders lift far to often. from my N=1 and abit of other knowledge seeking, it seems to me that; despite the particular event that caused us to hypertrophy , the building of new muscle happens at exactly the same speed. the only difference comes in how long your body builds muscle for, after an event. to illustrate if i get down and do twenty pushups (about my limit) my body might build muscle for a day after after it has recovered. If i do 3 massive reps of as much as i can handle in a bench press after recovery I might build muscle for 5 days after. tho in both of these cases I believe the muscle is built at the same speed, for the big Bench Press you get more muscle because your body built for longer.
    So in a week we have a finite muscle building amount regardless of stress input or recovery time. If you've given your body a big stress event that caused it to build muscle for the whole week, adding more stress events won't build that muscle any faster, all you are doing is giving your self is a large requirement for extra calories. I also believe in this case, recovery time and time building muscle after the stress event can be vastly different. ie you might recover from the big bench press set after 2 days and could do it again after those 2 days without chronic troubles, but for that same event, muscle building might still be going on after a week.
    So here we end up with lots of amateurs lifting all week, causing their bodies to go wild on the calories,wich then has a negative effect on fat loss, and still only building muscle at a certain speed.

    This is my N=1. I do a big event (really tax my body) for each muscle group (push, pull, legs) usually on or around the same day and that's it. For the rest of the week I stick my feet up and relax. Usually for a few days after the big lifts, while im recovering from them, I eat big because my body forces me to (to replenish). After about 2-3 days is up, I'm fully recovered and could go again with more lifts, but I don't, I just sit around because I know I'm still building muscle behind the scenes. In this window, after I've recovered and before the end of the week, I muck around with calories and fasts, if I feel like losing fat that week. so at the end of the week I can end up gaining muscle and losing fat. The only thing is I'm probably not building as fast as other more serious amateurs but i don't think it is by much, I also don't know how much of a noob lifter I am, been mucking around for six months and can still lose fat and gain muscle if I want to.
    Well your talking about HIT concepts mixed with a week long sort of feast/famine strategy right? I love HIT, and lift this way myself. I have done 1x/week but I think I do better with 2x/10 days.....could just be because I enjoy the pain though

    Anyhow back to the question. I can say with certainty that there are not near enough studies done on minimal work strategies like HIT for us to cite one in this instance. I believe your thoughts are sound enough. I've come to much the same protocol myself in fact! The concern I always came to is that logically all the protocols that focused on IF and carb cycling were lifting at least three times a week. So I always wondered what exact effect stretching out that feed and famine windows would have. I don't have all the answers on this..... I just think its quite plausible its superior! First from the evolutionary standpoint dont you think if you were to feast it was due to a kill and/or gathering where you could feast for at least a few days? And for the last half the week, your food stores run a little low and you'd eat a little less till its time to go hunting again. And the next point, who thinks that muscle growth will actually occur on the day it was torn down? And we (most of us) accept that the hormonal melee as a reason for immediate refeed window right after your workout is largely bunk right? Your still inflamed which will lead to growth, but not until the next stage of healing sets in based on physiology. So you really should give yourself a nice 72 hr feed window for growth IMO.

    But.... Most of what I'm coming to I'm just hashing out logically from what I know. I actually don't have much scientific studies at my fingertips about this. I could definitely help you formulate the questions needed for further investigation though!

    Hormonal changes to high intensity training over the course of a week?
    Tissue and hormonal changes in conjunction with a 72 hour feast/carb refeed window post work out?
    Tissue and hormonal changes associated with 72-96 hour reduced caloric and carb state?

    Of course knowing each of these would not even give you the information needed to determine if the protocol would work though. You would really need to test the protocol as a whole.... "the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts in life and programming" - Neckhammer (all rights reserved).

    So in closing.... this is how I do things as well dilberryhoundog, so you have my support!
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-04-2013 at 05:48 AM.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by me2 View Post
    Also I agree with my frienemy, you should read this. Out explains both our viewpoints How Many Carbohydrates Do You Need | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald

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    Read that in another thread too.... So Lyle recommends 50-120g of carbs with occasional forays into ketosis for accelerated weight loss. Seems I've heard this story before

    Anyhow, Its all good. I don't deny anyone their feelings or N=1, but I have run across a more plausible biochemical/physiological mechanism here:

    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread91770.html

    May be of interest because it very well could be something people need to address even just to lose weight and feel well while doing it.... high or low carb.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-04-2013 at 06:04 AM.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Read that in another thread too.... So Lyle recommends 50-120g of carbs with occasional forays into ketosis for accelerated weight loss. Seems I've heard this story before
    I don't think he does.

    "Simply, the question “How Many Carbohydrates Do You Need?” has no singular answer. The goals of the person, the amount and type of activity, their individual needs (e.g. insulin sensitive vs. resistant, whether or not they function well in ketosis or not), their individual goals all determine how many carbs are ideal in the diet."

    He doesn't recommend any range unless he knows exactly what the needs of the individual are.
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