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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Until you fuck out and crash and burn from pushing too hard because you blindly followed a simple "uncomplicated" ideal. You might have been stronger than me for a year or 2 while the simple rule is working, after that I'm stronger because your dealing with a torn pectoral or a chronic back issue, because you flirted with the damage threshold and lost.
    For an analog see all the people who blindly follow low carb, low cal, their scale weight drops so they're successful right? by your measuring metric. 6 months later they've fucked their metabolisms (sometimes irreparably) and end up worse off.
    I fail to see the analogy. How is getting stronger screwing up anything analogous to one's metabolism? Do you really think adding a couple pounds a workout is a recipe for inevitable injury while less effective training methodologies and paradigms are not? If you want a guarantee of being injury free, don't get off the couch. Weight training is second to last on the following list of injury rates by sports, followed by weightlifting.

    Weight Training Safety and Injury

    For those that don't know, weightlifting refers, in this case, to practicing/performing/competing in the olympic lifts, which are the snatch and the clean and jerk. Weight training refers to strength training, probably along with the rest of the silly bullshit people do at the gym.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Yep and this is my point. Bicycle hill sprints is the full picture. Deadlifts are not the full picture unless your competing in a deadlift competition.

    Do we measure the success of our financial portfolio by saying our 25% in property has risen by 10% we are a success. Yet our our total portfolio might have dropped by 15%.

    The full picture results is what we are after (If full picture is not what your after, don't advise people on lifting protocols). So therefore it is logical to measure them by that metric also.


    Sent from my iPhone
    No, of course we measure our portfolio (fitness or financial) by its overall gains. If you make more money, you have more to invest and earn money on. If you get stronger, you can then train to display that strength more quickly (power), or for a longer period of time (muscle endurance).

    Who can power clean more weight, somebody who deadlifts 500 lbs or someone who deadlifts 200 lbs? It's the former. Every. Time. Who can push a bicycle pedal harder, somebody who squats 350 or somebody who squats 135? The answer is obvious. Strength is the underlying "fitness parameter" that all the others are built off of.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stacy15 View Post
    I had same thing happen, exactly. Was following SL 5x5 at the time. It was on my 5th rep when my back went out. Heard the cracking and all. My legs went numb, I went into a cold sweat and felt instantly sick. I managed to get to a bench and sat there for a few minutes wondering how bad I F'ed myself up. I could barely walk out of the gym... 2 days later I finally went to chiropractor still in pain and diagnosed with a back sprain.

    I was scared to DL again, but knew I wanted to do them again. About 3 weeks after injury I started back up using bar only. I've slowly added weight again up to 135 lbs, but haven't gone past 135. I just do more reps at that weight. I'm sure at some point I will add more weight, but my focus really isn't strength as it is a nice rear end Plus, I really don't want to injure myself again.
    I'm happy to hear someone knows what I went through. I think if I ever deadlift again I will NOT progress like I have been. I will get to a weight that feels fairly challenging and just add reps.

    I honestly believe that all these programs designed with men in mind are just wrong. I feel this intuitively. They just don't work right. I feel intuitively that the weight should not be heavier and heavier all the time. There needs to be more reps. I shouldn't be working right at the edge of failure because failure is instantaneous, no warning. I hurt my back deadlifting 150lbs. The week before I deadlifted 155lbs no problem. I can't be so close to failure if failure is going to come without warning and break my body in half.

    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    sbhikes:

    I would really try to identify the reason for your injury. If I had to guess, I would imagine you are not setting your spine into proper alignment and/or not keeping it there during the lift.
    I know this is exactly what happened. I had done several sets at lower weights and two reps at the weight that hurt me, all with perfectly fine form. Then the bad lift happened and it was like my arms were pulled down, my back couldn't hold straightness and it felt like my body just came apart. Why would that happen so suddenly? The other two reps were like eh, no big deal, I can crank out 5 of these no problem. Then boom. Broken body. One thing that really bugs me about lifting weights is how the failures come upon me suddenly without any warning. One rep is strong, the next one fails completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I'm in the camp that novice lifters need very little variety, and that variety should come in the form of adding weight to the bar every time they perform the main lifts. ... No offense, sbhikes, but you and I aren't getting invited to train with Louis Simmons any time in the foreseeable future.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stacy15 View Post
    You think women can advance at this rate too? Starting out I advanced fairly quickly adding 5-10 lbs to each week, but seemed to hit a max in a sense. My squat is still progressing slowly, although I did basically start over to get lower. Benching I can't seem to move as fast. I stalled for a while (2 months) at 135. 145 I've been at for a while now. I do 5x5's.
    I have not made any progress in presses in several months. Am I still a novice? I remember benching 75 x 5 before Christmas break. I attempted to do it last Monday and failed. Same story with OHP. I deloaded severely after my first back injury and have finally worked back up to almost where I was only to fail again.

    Dillberryhound I disagree with your mix-it-up approach and I know that I am not overtrained. I have felt what overtraining feels like. Mixing it up with variety just for variety's sake isn't going to get you anywhere. You have to have a goal. My goal was to get stronger and become more muscular. The muscular part has been working fairly well. Maybe I just need the more muscular part without the strength.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 180 x 2. Current Deadlift: 230 x 2

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I'm happy to hear someone knows what I went through. I think if I ever deadlift again I will NOT progress like I have been. I will get to a weight that feels fairly challenging and just add reps.
    I'd prefer this over forgoing deadlifts altogether.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I honestly believe that all these programs designed with men in mind are just wrong. I feel this intuitively. They just don't work right. I feel intuitively that the weight should not be heavier and heavier all the time. There needs to be more reps. I shouldn't be working right at the edge of failure because failure is instantaneous, no warning. I hurt my back deadlifting 150lbs. The week before I deadlifted 155lbs no problem. I can't be so close to failure if failure is going to come without warning and break my body in half.
    Failure certainly shouldn't break you in half. I certainly think you can make progress by adding reps to a point before adding weight. Might be slower progress, but slower progress may just be what the Dr. ordered for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I know this is exactly what happened. I had done several sets at lower weights and two reps at the weight that hurt me, all with perfectly fine form. Then the bad lift happened and it was like my arms were pulled down, my back couldn't hold straightness and it felt like my body just came apart. Why would that happen so suddenly? The other two reps were like eh, no big deal, I can crank out 5 of these no problem. Then boom. Broken body. One thing that really bugs me about lifting weights is how the failures come upon me suddenly without any warning. One rep is strong, the next one fails completely.
    I'm at a loss. Never had anything like this happen to me. Maybe one of the other "bro-scientists" can chime in. I am sorry it happened to you, but that won't help fix your back.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I have not made any progress in presses in several months. Am I still a novice? I remember benching 75 x 5 before Christmas break. I attempted to do it last Monday and failed. Same story with OHP. I deloaded severely after my first back injury and have finally worked back up to almost where I was only to fail again.
    Upper body lifts do tend to progress much more slowly for women. As to whether you're a novice, I really wouldn't claim to be able to make a guess. Aren't you doing a 5/3/1 variant anyway? That's not a particularly novice-oriented program.

    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    Dillberryhound I disagree with your mix-it-up approach and I know that I am not overtrained. I have felt what overtraining feels like. Mixing it up with variety just for variety's sake isn't going to get you anywhere. You have to have a goal. My goal was to get stronger and become more muscular. The muscular part has been working fairly well. Maybe I just need the more muscular part without the strength.
    Now you sound like the "bro-scientist!" If you think you might benefit from more hypertrophy-oriented higher volume/lower intensity rep schemes, try them (once you're healed up and can lift again). Everybody's different, and you seem to have a good grasp on what works for you and what doesn't. So I vote you give it a go.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Until you fuck out and crash and burn from pushing too hard because you blindly followed a simple "uncomplicated" ideal. You might have been stronger than me for a year or 2 while the simple rule is working, after that I'm stronger because your dealing with a torn pectoral or a chronic back issue, because you flirted with the damage threshold and lost.
    Yeah, I don't know what this has to do with anything. You can get injured while training anything, are you saying training with barbells is inherently more dangerous than other types of physical training?

    You can be "stronger" in 2 years because I am injured, or I could be lifting more and more and not be injured, and meanwhile you "fucked out and crashed" while sprinting up the hill on your bike and fucked yourself up. In fact, I'd bet sprinting up hills on a bicycle has more risk than proper weight training with barbells.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Yep and this is my point. Bicycle hill sprints is the full picture. Deadlifts are not the full picture unless your competing in a deadlift competition.
    Deadlifts measure pulling strength off the floor. Bicycle sprints measure bicycle sprints. What is "the full picture"? If you care more about strength than riding bicycles really fast, then doing deadlifts is more in line with your goals.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Do we measure the success of our financial portfolio by saying our 25% in property has risen by 10% we are a success. Yet our our total portfolio might have dropped by 15%.
    I don't know what you're getting at.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    The full picture results is what we are after (If full picture is not what your after, don't advise people on lifting protocols). So therefore it is logical to measure them by that metric also.
    What is the "full picture" and who is the "we" that's after it? This is a thread about deadlifts and strength training.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I know this is exactly what happened. I had done several sets at lower weights and two reps at the weight that hurt me, all with perfectly fine form. Then the bad lift happened and it was like my arms were pulled down, my back couldn't hold straightness and it felt like my body just came apart. Why would that happen so suddenly? The other two reps were like eh, no big deal, I can crank out 5 of these no problem. Then boom. Broken body. One thing that really bugs me about lifting weights is how the failures come upon me suddenly without any warning. One rep is strong, the next one fails completely.
    I would think of a couple of things:

    1. Are you 100% sure your back was in an equally hard extension as the previous reps on the bad rep?
    2. Is your bar path vertical? Did the injury happen on the way up, or on the way down?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I fail to see the analogy. How is getting stronger screwing up anything analogous to one's metabolism? Do you really think adding a couple pounds a workout is a recipe for inevitable injury while less effective training methodologies and paradigms are not? If you want a guarantee of being injury free, don't get off the couch. Weight training is second to last on the following list of injury rates by sports, followed by weightlifting.

    Weight Training Safety and Injury

    For those that don't know, weightlifting refers, in this case, to practicing/performing/competing in the olympic lifts, which are the snatch and the clean and jerk. Weight training refers to strength training, probably along with the rest of the silly bullshit people do at the gym.
    Of course, good form prevents a certain muscle group from "propping up" other underperforming muscle groups. It prevents the concentration of the damage threshold on a certain muscle group. This gives the "impression" of being stronger, you will add weight to the bar as your "form" improves and very soon you'll be flirting with the damage threshold once again, if your lifting protocol rely's on the big adaptation response that comes from lifting just under damage weight.

    getting stronger /= adding weight periodically to a bar,

    There are many ways to engage the adaptation response of muscle to a stressor, outside of adding weight to a bar.

    Look the main problem I see is most lifting protocols don't allow much slack. You are periodically lifting about 5% - 0% under the weight (stress) that would cause cell damage, If you increase your ability to handle this stress (hypertrophy) you add more stress (more weight to the bar) to keep you at the 5 to 0 % below damage threshold because big gains are made in this zone. Now this system is Ok if your resting is spot on. but usually its not. Usually people start lifting small stresses (weights) three times a week, 6 months later they are lifting much bigger stressors but they are still doing it 3 times a week. NO change in stress recovery. Every time you add more weight to a bar than you had last time, you should be resting longer than you did last time. Also I have an inkling that stress recovery times are not linear, more like exponential, when asked to recover from bigger and bigger stressors.
    This leads I think to eventually reaching a chronic stress situation. In almost all cases this will lead to a stall or cell damage. If your lifting protocol doesn't incorporate ever increasing rest metrics then it is a peice of shit and is a "recipe for inevitable injury".

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    No, of course we measure our portfolio (fitness or financial) by its overall gains. If you make more money, you have more to invest and earn money on. If you get stronger, you can then train to display that strength more quickly (power), or for a longer period of time (muscle endurance).

    Who can power clean more weight, somebody who deadlifts 500 lbs or someone who deadlifts 200 lbs? It's the former. Every. Time. Who can push a bicycle pedal harder, somebody who squats 350 or somebody who squats 135? The answer is obvious. Strength is the underlying "fitness parameter" that all the others are built off of.
    here's what it is: strength is multiplied by other metrics, it CANNOT exist in a vacuum, you need strength X something to have the ability to do some thing.

    lets Look at the cyclist riding up the hill. He needs a degree of strength, he needs a degree of conditioning, he needs a degree of power.


    without strength he cannot ride up that hill correct?

    well with out conditioning he can't contract his muscles more than once.

    Without power his muscles might take an hour to make one contraction.

    the degree to which strength affects the out come of any activity varies, it is very important, but not the only confounding factor.
    If we measure our strength progress by the weight we put on a bar and lift or fail at, does not correlate to our ability to do everything else. It also leads us to being too eager to adding weight to a bar so we can pat ourselfs on the back for increase in strength.

    My point is don't worry "whats on the bar", make sure its heavy and gives you a hard time lifting it, when you've recovered from that, lift it again, but this time a little different. If you want to see how effective your lifts are... ride quickly up a hill, your increased strength should compound with other fitness metrics and give you a better result.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Of course, good form prevents a certain muscle group from "propping up" other underperforming muscle groups. It prevents the concentration of the damage threshold on a certain muscle group. This gives the "impression" of being stronger, you will add weight to the bar as your "form" improves and very soon you'll be flirting with the damage threshold once again, if your lifting protocol rely's on the big adaptation response that comes from lifting just under damage weight.

    getting stronger /= adding weight periodically to a bar,

    There are many ways to engage the adaptation response of muscle to a stressor, outside of adding weight to a bar.

    Look the main problem I see is most lifting protocols don't allow much slack. You are periodically lifting about 5% - 0% under the weight (stress) that would cause cell damage, If you increase your ability to handle this stress (hypertrophy) you add more stress (more weight to the bar) to keep you at the 5 to 0 % below damage threshold because big gains are made in this zone. Now this system is Ok if your resting is spot on. but usually its not. Usually people start lifting small stresses (weights) three times a week, 6 months later they are lifting much bigger stressors but they are still doing it 3 times a week. NO change in stress recovery. Every time you add more weight to a bar than you had last time, you should be resting longer than you did last time. Also I have an inkling that stress recovery times are not linear, more like exponential, when asked to recover from bigger and bigger stressors.
    This leads I think to eventually reaching a chronic stress situation. In almost all cases this will lead to a stall or cell damage. If your lifting protocol doesn't incorporate ever increasing rest metrics then it is a peice of shit and is a "recipe for inevitable injury".



    here's what it is: strength is multiplied by other metrics, it CANNOT exist in a vacuum, you need strength X something to have the ability to do some thing.

    lets Look at the cyclist riding up the hill. He needs a degree of strength, he needs a degree of conditioning, he needs a degree of power.


    without strength he cannot ride up that hill correct?

    well with out conditioning he can't contract his muscles more than once.

    Without power his muscles might take an hour to make one contraction.

    the degree
    My point is don't worry "whats on the bar", make sure its heavy and gives you a hard time lifting it, when you've recovered from that, lift it again, but this time a little different. If you want to see how effective your lifts are... ride quickly up a hill, your increased strength should compound with other fitness metrics and give you a better result.
    I'm as guilty as the next. You can check the archives and see the sh*tstorm I caused regarding time in the gym, programs systems etc.

    The bottom line is they all work. Period. Charles Atlas got strong by doing isometrics. It is as simple as increasing the load and allowing time to recover.

  8. #58
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    I have been deadlifting below the level of using the big plates for so long that deadlifting low feels more normal. With the big plates it is harder to start so high. Perhaps that is all I need to do, deadlift at reps of 10 so that the weight is never close to a maximum for me. Maybe I should do that on everything.
    i train with a trainer once a week and we do 10-15 reps. i just do it coz he tells me to. i have never specifically told him that i want to get strong but he definitely is more into that progression. i am not usually good at doing what i am told otherwise. i have made and am making significant strength gains so i am all good and i also really enjoy the variety of things we do.

    . One thing that really bugs me about lifting weights is how the failures come upon me suddenly without any warning. One rep is strong, the next one fails completely
    i find certain body parts flake out on me quicker but if i say get to rep 7 of anything lower body, i know i can make 10. whereas upper body, i am never 100% till i get thru rep 9 to make 10. i also rarely go to failure. i conveniently read something somewhere once which reckoned women shouldnt so i chose to believe it i do go hard to the extent that i sometimes get lost on the way down the stairs to the truck from the gym ( 6 floors ) if i am texting as i cant think properly. i get a bit light headed and sometimes i feel like i am flying when i stop as i feel so light. my muscles all ache and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Sex is among the factors that go into determining the rate at which you can advance. I'm a dude and some of my lifts are only progressing in 2.5lb increments right now. I write the programming for my lady friend and her upper body lifts are going up by 1.25 pounds a session. I have a combination of 2" ID industrial washers and baseball bat weights that allow us to "microload." You can buy purpose-built microplates if you're fancier than I am. But the idea is to lift more every time for as long as you can.
    Ok this is hardcore. I workout at a gym with only option of increasing weight is 2.5 lbs on each side.

    I do feel if I can add 5 lbs after a month or two I'm doing ok. I don't strive for strength, but more so want the 'look'. Not sure at this point if there is a difference in lifting techniques to acheive one without the other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    I'm happy to hear someone knows what I went through. I think if I ever deadlift again I will NOT progress like I have been. I will get to a weight that feels fairly challenging and just add reps.

    I honestly believe that all these programs designed with men in mind are just wrong. I feel this intuitively. They just don't work right. I feel intuitively that the weight should not be heavier and heavier all the time. There needs to be more reps. I shouldn't be working right at the edge of failure because failure is instantaneous, no warning. I hurt my back deadlifting 150lbs. The week before I deadlifted 155lbs no problem. I can't be so close to failure if failure is going to come without warning and break my body in half.



    I know this is exactly what happened. I had done several sets at lower weights and two reps at the weight that hurt me, all with perfectly fine form. Then the bad lift happened and it was like my arms were pulled down, my back couldn't hold straightness and it felt like my body just came apart. Why would that happen so suddenly? The other two reps were like eh, no big deal, I can crank out 5 of these no problem. Then boom. Broken body. One thing that really bugs me about lifting weights is how the failures come upon me suddenly without any warning. One rep is strong, the next one fails completely.





    I have not made any progress in presses in several months. Am I still a novice? I remember benching 75 x 5 before Christmas break. I attempted to do it last Monday and failed. Same story with OHP. I deloaded severely after my first back injury and have finally worked back up to almost where I was only to fail again.

    Dillberryhound I disagree with your mix-it-up approach and I know that I am not overtrained. I have felt what overtraining feels like. Mixing it up with variety just for variety's sake isn't going to get you anywhere. You have to have a goal. My goal was to get stronger and become more muscular. The muscular part has been working fairly well. Maybe I just need the more muscular part without the strength.
    My back went out at a weight I had done multiple times before. I think I was just tired, and I lost form - even though I had lifted it before. Result=injury. I had been reading all these things about adding weight and thought if I wasn't adding weight I wasn't progressing. Lesson learned was I'm still kicking ass by just lifting. Go your own pace. Do what you can without risk of injury. If it means doing 8-10 reps or more vs. 5 at a lighter weight, do it. Add weight when you feel you need to add weight. I see my body changing for the better without having to add weight to the bar each week. Just keep lifting what you can and you will continue to get strong.

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