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Thread: Is there room for Hypertrophy? page 3

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclrc View Post
    Not convinced by this argument at all. Many top coaches e.g. Jim Wendler hold that going to failure is not necessary all of the time, if ever.
    And I am not saying that it is necessary all of the time either! When a lifter is more advanced he will be close to true failure and can keep a rep or two in the tank, especially when working with few reps many sets and heavy weights. But most people that are not so advanced and doing higher reps should make sure to go to failure, or very close to it, from time to time, but not necessary on every set...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    Now, for women they always recommend more sets... do maybe fatigue is irrelevant?
    I am starting to wonder if maybe that is true. I was so frustrated yesterday with my lack of progress on overhead press (literally been at this level for months) that I decided I would do 7 reps of 2. Basically just keep doing sets of 2 until I got to 15 (well, 14, close enough.) Perhaps next time I will just do sets of 2 until I can only do 1 even if that takes an hour. Something's gotta move me forward.

    This was an interesting read I found yesterday: Do women need to train differently than men? | Real Strength
    One more offshoot here to keep in mind is that since women tend to have a fiber blend that is more fatigue-resistant, they shouldn’t rely as much on rep max calculators. I’ve seen a girl squat 155×15 with a 1rm of 185. 155×15 would project a 1rm of 235-255ish. If a man can squat 185, he’s only going to get 6 or 7 reps with 155.
    He also says women should train heavier than a man and also do more volume. I'm not sure how you accomplish that. Is there a good program for women that accomplishes this?
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 170 x 3. Current Deadlift: 220 x 3

  3. #23
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    Yes, Wendler is primarily a strength coach, but variations of his program (5/3/1), notably BBB (big but boring), do contain a fair amount of volume in order to aid HT. Wendler has stated, and this fits with paleo/primal in general, that there is no point in being bit for the sake of it i.e. size without proportionate strength is pointless.

    It is widely accepted that regularly going to failure has a negative impact on strength gains and also increases the risk of injury. That said, most bodybuilders train to failure quite often as it does seem to produce the most HT.

    Whilst there is nothing wrong with going to failure per se, Gorbag's statement that it is necessary for growth is simply not true. Damaging muscle tissue and subsequent repair and growth will occur without going to failure (assuming correct rest and nutrition, etc.).

    If you are going to go to failure, and it can be a useful tool as it allows more work to get done, be careful which exercises you utilize it with. Pull-ups, tricep/bicep curls, etc. won't really do much harm if taken to failure, whilst big compound lifts e.g. squat, deadlifts, etc. could potentially lead to injury and will almost certainly negatively effect strength gains.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    And I am not saying that it is necessary all of the time either! When a lifter is more advanced he will be close to true failure and can keep a rep or two in the tank, especially when working with few reps many sets and heavy weights. But most people that are not so advanced and doing higher reps should make sure to go to failure, or very close to it, from time to time, but not necessary on every set...
    I just read this after writing my previous post and whilst I agree on many of the points made, we will have to agree to disagree that failure is EVER necessary, which is what you imply. Again, there is nothing wrong with using failure as a tool, but it is no magic weapon and hypertrophy is more than possible without ever using it.
    Last edited by maclrc; 07-19-2013 at 08:15 AM.

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    I am starting to wonder if maybe that is true. I was so frustrated yesterday with my lack of progress on overhead press (literally been at this level for months) that I decided I would do 7 reps of 2. Basically just keep doing sets of 2 until I got to 15 (well, 14, close enough.) Perhaps next time I will just do sets of 2 until I can only do 1 even if that takes an hour. Something's gotta move me forward.
    I was doing 7 sets of 3's for a while on BP because I was so tired of missing reps.

    He also says women should train heavier than a man and also do more volume. I'm not sure how you accomplish that. Is there a good program for women that accomplishes this?
    What I have seen said based on the same data is not that women should try to lift more than men, our % lifted to body weight is LOWER, but that we can put in more reps near max than men. Hence the suggestion for more sets for women to induce the similar response in muscle. Anecdotaly, I was putting on more muscle while bulking up in 5x5 regimen, AND have had the highest lifts in the Madcow regimen. Both training regimens employed 5x5 sets. Less sets (3x5, Wendler and 1 set of 7 to failure) did not produce notable results for me. So, I think for me at least the woman axiom works - I need more sets of relatively heavy reps to induce response (but not too many reps per set, or I can't lift sufficient weight - so no responce to Cross-fitting 50 reps and such). Hence, I was thinking to try the mother of all volume training, the GVT 10x10. I have never seen any women to describe her experience with 10x10.
    Last edited by Leida; 07-19-2013 at 08:20 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclrc View Post
    I just read this after writing my previous post and whilst I agree on many of the points made, we will have to agree to disagree that failure is EVER necessary, which is what you imply. Again, there is nothing wrong with using failure as a tool, but it is no magic weapon and hypertrophy is more than possible without ever using it.
    Well, failure can be defined in different ways, what is important is to get a response for supercompensation, and not only tear down muscle tissue and replace it with new contractible proteins. To get a response for supercompensation you need to dig into the nervous system harder on a few sets. Muscle growth is not a linear process usually but happens in "bursts" and studies has shown that a high rep set with relative low weight is just as effective for hyperthrophy if taken to failure or close to failure, as low reps and high load. Failure seem to be a more important parameter than load on the bar...
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by maclrc View Post
    I just read this after writing my previous post and whilst I agree on many of the points made, we will have to agree to disagree that failure is EVER necessary, which is what you imply. Again, there is nothing wrong with using failure as a tool, but it is no magic weapon and hypertrophy is more than possible without ever using it.
    Going to failure may not be necessary, but intensity is. At least based on the very scant evidence we have in this area. Going to failure simply assures you that you have hit the intensity threshold that is most likely to be sufficient to cause adaptive changes. You can obviously reach said threshold through volume training, effectively your just taking a longer time to mimic the same intensity IMO. Programming usually utilizes a bit of each or a period of one then the other. I like HIT better because I don't have hours on end to just hang round the gym. So I use more weight and push em till they won't move no more. That tells my body to get stronger so that next time we CAN move the weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    I was doing 7 sets of 3's for a while on BP because I was so tired of missing reps.



    What I have seen said based on the same data is not that women should try to lift more than men, our % lifted to body weight is LOWER, but that we can put in more reps near max than men. Hence the suggestion for more sets for women to induce the similar response in muscle. Anecdotaly, I was putting on more muscle while bulking up in 5x5 regimen, AND have had the highest lifts in the Madcow regimen. Both training regimens employed 5x5 sets. Less sets (3x5, Wendler and 1 set of 7 to failure) did not produce notable results for me. So, I think for me at least the woman axiom works - I need more sets of relatively heavy reps to induce response (but not too many reps per set, or I can't lift sufficient weight - so no responce to Cross-fitting 50 reps and such). Hence, I was thinking to try the mother of all volume training, the GVT 10x10. I have never seen any women to describe her experience with 10x10.
    Yeah, that makes sense. I think he was saying what you said. That we can put in more reps near the max than men. Our 10 rep max doesn't calculate out to our 1 rep max using typical calculators. It's much closer to the 1 rep max than it is for a man.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 170 x 3. Current Deadlift: 220 x 3

  9. #29
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    So, I have 2 weeks left on my current progressive strength schedule (it was an 8 weeks plan), but I am tempted to try Lyle's workouts starting this week. Of course already made a spreadsheet. I tell ya, 4 high carb/low fat days is a HUGE temptation. On the other hand, i have no clue how long Lyle's workout would take, and that is worrysome. I have till tomorrow to decide what I wanna do.
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  10. #30
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    Okay, I started Lyle's regimen yesterday with a LB split. I think my weights were too cautious because I do not feel much. On the other hand, the last reps were hard - but that might have been psychological adjustment to 'wait, that was 5, we are not finished? I also took Jack3D beforehand to ease in, so that may have skewed the intensity perception. I did 8 min warm up on rower and some 22 min afterwards of elliptical cardio as recommended. Then i did gardening with loading and unloading 19 bags of compost/mulch. I was neither hungry nor winded by the end of the day.

    Practically, with 4 sets of 8, and 2" instead of 3" rests, and leaving out the heavy calf raise I was able to complete the lifting in ~ 1 hr.

    Going to do upper body split today. We'll see how that goes.
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