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  1. #21
    spyder's Avatar
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    I don't feel I need for a whole multi, so I take a 1/2 multi most days (some days none). Maybe I'm one of the few that believe in some supplements. I take the multi, Vit. E (mixed tocos.), Mag Malate, Selenium & Lots of Vit. C.

    My grandfather just passed away this last spring in his 98th year. He was active his whole life, playing golf into his early 90’s. His father and his brother both died of heart disease in their 50’s (this was before most processed food BTW). He was very health conscious and had been taking supplements since the late 1950’. His cupboards were full of them. He only bought them from the health food store though. He did lots of research (not on the web). He also had a very good diet and cooked a lot. He and Mark are sort of my “guides” for healthy living.

    Find the one that's right for you. It may take some research and trial and error.
    The supplement business is big business and there's no one looking out for you, so do your research.

  2. #22
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    I think sensible supplementation is good.

    The idea that simply eating real food is enough to provide the body with everything it needs is flawed. There are a couple of reasons:

    1. Our food is not what it used to be. Mass produced, grown with chemicals, poor soil mineralization, etc. Even if you buy local organic produce, it is not as fresh and as good as its real, wild counterparts, and those are exceedingly hard to come by. Eating broccoli you bought at Whole Foods is not the same broccoli you would find in the wild and eat there and then.

    2. The ratios of nutrients are artificial. Good or bad, but we live in a time when we can choose what we can eat, and how much of it. I can eat liver all day. I can eat 30 eggs. I have coconut oil, olive oil, and butter. Essentially, I am the one that decides what I eat. In the past, during Grok's time, this was not the case. You grew up and evolved in a particular place, and ate what that place offered, in the ratios that it provided. If you lived by the ocean, maybe you ate a higher ratio of fish. If you lived in the forest, maybe you ate more nuts and mushrooms. If you lived in a very warm climate, maybe you ate a lot more fruit.

    The point is, you did not choose exactly what you ate and how much of it you ate, because your environment largely dictated that. Since we are now in charge of our diet, it is hard to imagine that what we are eating, despite our best intentions, provides us with the correct ratios of whatever our genes have adapted to. Primal is just a very rough approximation in a modern context, it is not Grok's diet.

    3. Real food obtained in modern times does not magically provide us with the right "synergy" of nutrients. This is tied closely to point #2. We can get any real food in any quantity we want, and eat it with any frequency we want. I don't see how in the context of modern life, I can choose all my food and provide my body with everything it needs. How do you know you're getting everything you need, when you're picking food from a huge available supply, eating it in quantities not dictated by your natural environment, and when the food is not as good as it should be?

    4. Supplementation is meant to supplement. This means that it adds to whatever you are eating, not replaces it. Supplementation is not advised as a replacement for real food. However, considering our diet is flawed, I don't see the harm in adding things you know your body needs.

    5. Last by not least, optimal nutrition vs. adequate. Eating whole food might be adequate, but is it optimal? Supplements can help provide extra things you're missing, or not getting quite enough of. For example, having vitamin D level of 20ng/mL is sufficient for preventing bad vitamin D deficiency symptoms. However, is it optimal? You might be getting enough magnesium from your food, but are you getting the optimal amount? Same with all the other nutrients.

  3. #23
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    spend a couple minutes and enter a few days' worth of food into cronometer. it tracks macros AND micros. this way you can see if and where you are actually coming up short. taking a broad spectrum super-dose is at best throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks and at worst potentially dangerous. there is a lot of controversy if the body recognizes synthetic vitamins AT ALL, and since they are not ingested in the body's favored proportions they could be severely upsetting your internal apple cart.

    as far as fish oil much of it in the stores is rancid and oil from "fish" is not krap you want to be taking. you're doing great on your 0:6/0:3 ratios by eliminating grains and junk oils. if you can afford the next step up of grass-fed and pastured critters to eat that's a huge advantage too.

    btw, i take magnesium, k2 and d3.
    As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

    Ernest Hemingway

  4. #24
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    I've been taking ONE Multi Liquid Gels. But lately I've been skipping on taking them daily and only supplement when I feel like I didn't get enough variety in my diet over a few days.

    Nutrient profile: http://puu.sh/3Ephl.png

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by noodletoy View Post
    taking a broad spectrum super-dose is at best throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks and at worst potentially dangerous. there is a lot of controversy if the body recognizes synthetic vitamins AT ALL, and since they are not ingested in the body's favored proportions they could be severely upsetting your internal apple cart.
    It is a bit of "spaghetti at the wall" approach with multivitamins. I think it's similar with food, I mean do you think your body absorbs every nutrient from food? If you take a quality multivitamin, I am not sure what the big risk is. They don't have too much of anything, and the things they might, are typically water soluble vitamins. Like I said in my previous post, I am sure we are eating too little and too much of certain real foods too.

    Also, I'm pretty sure the body recognizes synthetic vitamins. Deficiencies can often be cured with synthetic vitamin supplements. For example, I increased my vitamin D level by over 100% by taking pills. They are not only synthetic, but they were taken orally, instead of synthesized from sunlight by the body. There is definitely variation in terms of how well certain vitamins are absorbed, and in what form, but I don't think there is doubt that the body can, and indeed does utilize synthetic vitamins.

  6. #26
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    I grew up in a household where we would take handfuls of vitamins several times a day, on the premise that:

    1. Modern soil is depleted of nutrients, and even real organic food is little more than empty calories;
    2. The government's recommendations have been corrupted by big business, so actually we need several times as much of each nutrient as they suggest;
    3. Although she bought mostly organic food and we consumed massive quantities (to the point where we were all overweight), we were likely deficient in many vitamins and minerals, because...
    4. It is not just possible but likely you can have multiple serious, health-threatening deficiencies while appearing perfectly healthy, and...
    5. The fact that you observe zero effect from consuming any of the supplements you take is irrelevant.


    I don't believe in the insurance model of vitamin dosage. I wish I had all the money my mother spent over the years on supplements. If she's gotten a little exercise in her life it would have done her a heck of a lot more good than popping all those pills. At my age she had already begun to shrink, and I have not.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by eKatherine View Post
    [*]It is not just possible but likely you can have multiple serious, health-threatening deficiencies while appearing perfectly healthy, and...[*]The fact that you observe zero effect from consuming any of the supplements you take is irrelevant. [/LIST]

    I don't believe in the insurance model of vitamin dosage. I wish I had all the money my mother spent over the years on supplements. If she's gotten a little exercise in her life it would have done her a heck of a lot more good than popping all those pills. At my age she had already begun to shrink, and I have not.
    Hah! Exactly. If you have a real health problem, get some tests done. If you have a real deficiency I can see spot targeting that with some supplementation for a short time. I just don't buy the premise that we are all deficient all of the time. Blanket supplementation for no reason is, as Noodletoy said, pretty pointless at best and dangerous at worst. Excessive levels of many nutrients are as harmful if not more so than deficiencies.

    What amazes me is people who complain that GF beef is too expensive yet continue to shell out major money on supplements.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Hah! Exactly. If you have a real health problem, get some tests done. If you have a real deficiency I can see spot targeting that with some supplementation for a short time. I just don't buy the premise that we are all deficient all of the time. Blanket supplementation for no reason is, as Noodletoy said, pretty pointless at best and dangerous at worst. Excessive levels of many nutrients are as harmful if not more so than deficiencies.

    What amazes me is people who complain that GF beef is too expensive yet continue to shell out major money on supplements.
    Many deficiencies do not manifest themselves with clear health problems. A deficiency might make you more tired, or give you more cavities, or cause some joint aches, or make you sleep worse, etc. Being deficient in something can feel like part of life. This is the argument of adequate vs. optimal.

    Also, overdosing on micronutrients from multivitamins is incredibly difficult. From the studies I have seen, you would have to deliberately take a ton of pills to actually start overdosing.

  9. #29
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    It's a judgment everyone would have to make for him or herself. Personally, I think that when I take something and feel no different, nothing has happened. Indeed, I recall reading at one time where a long-haired woman announced her hair had started growing much faster, and it was the seaweed in her hair growth supplement! She was getting 250mcg a day of seaweed, a tiny fraction of a gram. Sure. She was mistaking her seasonal fluctuations in hair growth for the effects of some ripoff supplement she was taking.

    The idea that the multivitamin you happened to be taking would be targeted toward the exact array of symptomless deficiencies you may or may not be manifesting seems a little unlikely to me. But hey, it's your money and your comfort level.
    Last edited by eKatherine; 07-16-2013 at 03:47 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by eKatherine View Post
    It's a judgment everyone would have to make for him or herself. Personally, I think that when I take something and feel no different, nothing has happened. The idea that the multivitamin you happened to be taking would be targeted toward the exact array of symptomless deficiencies you may or may not be manifesting seems a little unlikely to me.
    It's certainly up to the person, and it's no guarantee of anything. That said, a deficiency won't get corrected with a multivitamin quickly, since the concentration of a particular micronutrient won't be high in a broad supplement like that. So, it could be a while after taking the multivitamin that the deficiency corrects, at which point you might not notice, or might not attribute it to the multivitamin.

    Also, I think not feeling different is not a good indicator, necessarily. I mean I feel the same whether I eat bananas, avocados, berries, kale, carrots, or none of them. Does this indicate that these foods are useless for me?

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