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Thread: What to do or say re: undernourished vegan baby? page 8

  1. #71
    eKatherine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    There is a question around whether or not to call CPS in general because it's about whether we are going to take a 'community approach' to solving the problem or the "let the authorities deal with it" approach to solving the problem.

    From my point of view, authorities should be called after every community approach has been taken. As many people have asserted, most people do not want to get involved because they don't want to be seen as a "bad guy" -- in a sense, they collude with the problem -- and then wash their consciences when they call the authorities.

    Instead, taking a community approach can actually solve the problem without the trauma of what the authorities may do. For example, I lived in an apartment in my university years, where a young mother and her children lived. In moved a boyfriend, who could be quite aggressive. he frightened me a few times!

    So, i decided to invite the mom and kids over for a fun craft and pizza and movie night. Once the kids passed out, I talked with the mom about her boyfriend -- what concerns she might ahve for her children in regards to him, and what concerns I had as well. We talked about what solutions might exist for us, and I contacted a local church organization (catholic), to find out what sorts of services were available.

    Not only were they able to help with her food/clothing/shelter/educational costs for her children, but they provided a really cool family-friendly environment for them, as well as the opportunity for couple's therapy. Ultimately, they broke up, but the whole time the community was making sure that those kids were safe, and the mom felt supported in the process.

    In another instance, a mom was going through some severe depression. She'd been left by her husband (he had abandoned all of them), and didn't have money, job, etc. She managed to keep the house, but she was so depressed she could hardly get out of bed. The kids were basically fed, btu the house was a mess, adn the kids seemed a bit neglected overall. A couple of neighbors and I went over, and asked her how we could help her cope. I connected her with a local support group, and we took turns cleaning her home, doing laundry, and making sure that they all had nutritious food. Her support group coordinator helped her get disability, and then later helped her find a job when she was ready. From there, she took over caring for her children more and more as she got on her feet.

    We didn't need CPS. We needed the commitment to step in and *really help* in such a situation.

    IN this sort of situation, I would simply go and raise my concerns. I'd take the carts, point out elements that would demonstrate why I think the child might have an issue with integration of their food (not speaking about veganism, but about "other possible medical explanations") so that the family would feel motivated to seek help. I might even make vegan foods to take over that are more nourishing for the mother AND the child (since the mother is breastfeeding).

    If I feel convinced that the parents are not taking action, and are not accepting a community-based support process, THEN i would consider calling the authorities. But only then.

    IN this instance, the OP knows nothing other than the worries of a Grandmother who may have issues with the way her children ahve decided to do things (like my MIL is with us) -- and it may be more a fear/concern about *that* than it is a reality that the child is not thriving (or hasn't gone to the doctor).
    What you seem to be saying is that we should trust that there is a community around her that will take over and deal with it, many private citizens donating their time and money to a woman they may not even know?

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by eKatherine View Post
    What you seem to be saying is that we should trust that there is a community around her that will take over and deal with it, many private citizens donating their time and money to a woman they may not even know?
    I'm confused, I thought the point was that she's better than us because she helped someone once. Sorry, re-read, twice. So maybe twice as better than us?
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  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by loafingcactus View Post
    I'm confused, I thought the point was that she's better than us because she helped someone once. Sorry, re-read, twice. So maybe twice as better than us?
    Could be.

  4. #74
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    No, the point was for the OP's friend to take a community approach, rather than taking an authority approach *at this point in time*.

    The reasoning behind this is similar to Deine's experience. And this family's experience.

    Once you call the authorities, the bureaucracy takes over. What happens then is really a matter of 30-day notices, having to file things properly, and the opinion of the person who is on the case -- which may be pressured by the income that placing children creates for the department and the state (look up what happens to native children in the Dakotas and how that ties in with money).

    My core value is that children are taken care of and that families -- if they are healthy -- stay together. That is, in the case of my depressed neighbor, she could have most definitely had her children removed from her home and in the system. Then what? How was that going to solve the problem for her or her children?

    Yes, maybe she gets help through the state and gets on her feet and gets her children back -- but that may not be the case. And foster care isn't pretty either. Lots of children are abused in foster care.

    As such, knowing what community services are available for families (that are non-governmental, as well as governmental ones), or knowing who can access them (why I went to catholic social services in the first instance) can help keep children healthy and families together.

    To me, CPS is a last port of call, a last ditch effort.

    I'm not saying that *you* have to volunteer or do anything. I'm just saying that when we are in community, we can take a community approach.

  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Imagine this baby dying of malnutrition. Happens to vegan babies all the time. Babies can't choose to deny their humanity. I sure wouldn't want to cause anybody a hassle though...
    The United States is basically a police state, and if you call CPS the parent's life will become a living hell, and ordinarily I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

    But this baby is going to be messed up for life, so I agree with Rich.

  6. #76
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    "Child Protective Services, how can I help you?"

    "Yes, I'd like to report that a baby I've never seen is allegedly not following The Primal Blueprint by Mark Sisson."

    "Oh, thank God you called when you did!"

    "Really?"

    "No, I'm being sarcastic. What the fuck is The Primal Blueprint?"

    "Nice language. It's a set of ten laws that Grok followed to ensure optimal gene expression."

    "Who's Grok? Is that the baby's father?"

    "No, Grok was a caveman who lived 10,000 years ago. Am I speaking to an idiot?"

    "My bad. So how has the baby angered Grok?"

    "The baby is violating primal law #1: eat lots of plants and animals. She's on a vegan diet."

    "Oh, that's so healthy. It really helps to keep your saturated fat and cholesterol down."

    "No, that's just conventional wisdom. You can actually eat unlimited saturated fat once you're a fat burning beast. And you don't have to worry about cholesterol - it just doesn't matter. It's the refined carbs and rancid seed oils you have to watch out for."

    "Oh yeah, my sister's doing the low carb thing. She tries to stay under 50 grams a day."

    "No, the carb curve is a myth! Mark was wrong about the carb curve and the insulin theory of obesity, but obviously he's right about everything else!"

    "Who's Mark? Is he the baby's father?"

    "I hope not!"

    "Anyway, you're concerned because the baby's on a vegan diet?"

    "Yeah, they didn't even let her have birthday cake."

    "You think she needs birthday cake?"

    "It can be part of her 20 percent. Look, a healthy diet consists of meat, eggs, fruits, vegetables, and birthday cake. I don't see what's so hard to understand."

    "So why are you concerned about the baby?"

    "She just turned 1, and she only weighs 15 pounds."

    "That's on the low end of normal, but still normal. Is she being breastfed?"

    "Yeah, but she looks very skinny."

    "But you've never seen her."

    "No, it's my friend's granddaughter, and she lives 500 miles away from the baby. Anyway, people on Mark's forum said that I had to report this."

    "I don't see what the problem is. Did the baby's doctor say anything?"

    "They've never taken her to a doctor."

    "Now that's a problem. Babies need regular doctor visits. If they won't take her, we might have to intervene. But you really don't want that if it can be avoided. Talk to your friend, have her talk to the parents and make sure the baby sees a doctor. If they refuse, then call us back. Child Protective Services is a last resort."

    "OK, I guess that makes sense. Now I know."

    "And knowing is half the battle!"
    "Don't go in there, General, it's a trap! That's a grain chamber. It makes people like you into people like me."

  7. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by zoebird View Post
    No, the point was for the OP's friend to take a community approach, rather than taking an authority approach *at this point in time*.

    The reasoning behind this is similar to Deine's experience. And this family's experience.

    Once you call the authorities, the bureaucracy takes over. What happens then is really a matter of 30-day notices, having to file things properly, and the opinion of the person who is on the case -- which may be pressured by the income that placing children creates for the department and the state (look up what happens to native children in the Dakotas and how that ties in with money).

    My core value is that children are taken care of and that families -- if they are healthy -- stay together. That is, in the case of my depressed neighbor, she could have most definitely had her children removed from her home and in the system. Then what? How was that going to solve the problem for her or her children?

    Yes, maybe she gets help through the state and gets on her feet and gets her children back -- but that may not be the case. And foster care isn't pretty either. Lots of children are abused in foster care.

    As such, knowing what community services are available for families (that are non-governmental, as well as governmental ones), or knowing who can access them (why I went to catholic social services in the first instance) can help keep children healthy and families together.

    To me, CPS is a last port of call, a last ditch effort.

    I'm not saying that *you* have to volunteer or do anything. I'm just saying that when we are in community, we can take a community approach.
    The idea that a grandmother who lives 500 miles away from her grandchild and rarely sees the child can mobilize to create a large community of organized and co-ordinated caring volunteers to help that mother and child is out of the realm of possible. She is not in "the community". She has no connections there. (Lots of people don't have a multitude of connections to potential volunteers even in the communities where they live.) This is no different from suggesting that nothing be done.

  8. #78
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    Annnnnd Primal Hunter For The Win! :-)
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  9. #79
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    I think all zoebird is saying is that the grandma should talk to the parents and help them solve the problem on their own before resorting to calling the authorities. This isn't the kind of situation where the parents need a community of volunteers to help them anyway. All that is really needed is an email and phone call to her son.

    Lmao, PrimalHunter!

  10. #80
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    I can't believe we're even having a debate whether it's okay to let a child starve and suffer.

    But do go on about the parents' right to be ignorant jackasses some more, that's the real issue here.
    “Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.” Rumi

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