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Thread: Marks position on Ketosis? Ketogenic vs Paleo. page

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    Question Marks position on Ketosis? Ketogenic vs Paleo.

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    I am new to low carb eating ( I actually have not started yet, waiting on my high carb foods in my cupboard to finish) but I began reading "The Art and Science of Low Carb living", by Jeff Volek PhD and Stephen Phinney M.D., a thorough guide promoting low carb eating (ketogenic diet) and analyzes studies done on high carb diets and low carb/ high fat diets. I have been thoroughly convinced by this book to go on a low carb diet. However, after browsing through Marks website as well Cavemandoctor.com, I am a little confused on Marks position of ketosis.

    In this book, the authors promote a low carb diet to induce ketosis. In this case, a low carb diet is 50 grams or less of carbs. HOWEVER, MARK AND THE CAVEMAN DR ADVICE NOT TO GO INTO KETOSIS, BUT IF YOU DO ITS NOT BAD?!? CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN THIS PARADIGM TO ME?

    ALSO, if Mark is stating to try and avoid ketosis, ARE MARK AND THE CAVEMAN DR CONFUSED BETWEEN KETOSIS AND KETOACIDOSIS? From my understanding Ketosis is not dangerous because it only means that your ketone levels are 3-5mM while ketoacidosis is a medical emergency, usually only occurs in diabetics when you can no longer produce insulin, and ketone levels are extremely high at above 15mM.

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    As far as I know Mark is indifferent towards ketosis. His position is basically do it short-term for weight loss and do carb refeeds regularly, but there's no need to do it permanently unless you use it for therapeutic reasons, such as treating brain disorders. Of course if you like it and thrive on it, that's also a good reason to do it. But ultimately it's up to you and how you respond to it. It's definitely not necessary or ideal for most people IMO, but figure out if it's ideal for you and I think Mark would agree with that.
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    Mark doesn't say don't go into ketosis, I suspect you've misread or misinterpreted that along the way. also the level of carbs you need to stay in ketosis varies- eg I stay in ketosis at up to 75 carbs, any more and I drop out. Ketosis isn't necessary for a lot of people and VLC isn't easy to follow for many people.
    there is some evidence that a prolonged very restricted VLC ketogenic diet can provoke an impaired glucose tolerance and physiological insulin resistance,
    A lot of people find they dont feel good when in prolonged ketosis while others feel marvellous. doing it is different to reading about. See what you think when you try it

    btw i doubt the authors are confused about ketosis and ketoacidosis, acidosis does develop in non diabetics but its very rarely at any extreme level unless you starve. severely malnourished anorexics with very low body weight frequently have an acidic PH and for them it can be dangerous
    Last edited by CarbDodger; 07-06-2013 at 02:12 PM.
    When I'd had enough of the grain and starched based 'diabetic eating for health' diet (eating for health, my ass!) my weight was 242.5 lbs. On starting primal- 18th April 2013 weight : 238.1.
    27th July 2013. weight after 100 days 136.9 weight lost 101.2lb ; that's 105.6lbs since I stopped the 'diabetic eating for health'
    new journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1264082

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    Thank you for your response J3nn. A quick question then on that. Since ketone production is what matters in a ketogenic diet. Would you happen to know if ketones can still be produced at adequate levels with say 80 or 100 grams of carbs a day?

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    Thank you for your response and clarification CarbDodger!

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    Why wouldn't Ketosis be necessary for everyone? When would ketosis be necessary?

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcampo View Post
    Thank you for your response J3nn. A quick question then on that. Since ketone production is what matters in a ketogenic diet. Would you happen to know if ketones can still be produced at adequate levels with say 80 or 100 grams of carbs a day?
    We all already produce ketones, especially at night while we sleep or in a fasted state. We are already sugar AND fat burners. Ketosis is just a varying degree where you switch to using more ketones than usual and fat becomes your primary fuel; it's a survival mechanism that we have discovered can be a useful hack for various things. However, some people who try it do really badly with it. It's also very easy to revert back to burning glucose, like the difference between a few grams of carbs OR protein. Keep in mind that ketosis is a high fat diet more than it's a low-carb diet. It's important to keep carbs and protein low and fat high.

    I'm sure some people can stay in ketosis on 75-100g carbs especially if their overall calories are low, but it's not as common. You'll have to find the amount that you can sustain it with.

    I don't recommend ketosis. I don't believe it's meant for long-term use for most people. But if you want to give it a go, maybe you will find it's amazing for you. You'll want to also keep your electrolytes balanced by using liberal amounts of salt and eating organ meats like liver for potassium and such.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcampo View Post
    Why wouldn't Ketosis be necessary for everyone? When would ketosis be necessary?
    Ketosis is never necessary unless, like Jenn said, it's for therapeutic reasons such as epilepsy.

    Not everyone functions well in ketosis, while some thrive. It's very individual. If you're an athlete who requires anaerobic endurance, restricting carbohydrates will have a negative effect on your performance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcampo View Post
    Why wouldn't Ketosis be necessary for everyone? When would ketosis be necessary?
    Because the brain loves glucose. Even in ketosis it needs at least 120g a day and will get it through dietary sugars or through gluconeogenesis (breaking down dietary protein or bodily tissues/organs). It's also a very restrictive diet that requires keeping a delicate balance of macronutrients at all times. It can be very stressful to the body as it is a survival mechanism and not the default choice of the brain or body. Supplementation of missing minerals is also often another extra measure that you generally don't have to do with a higher carb diet.

    Another reason very low carb is wrong for people is underlying thyroid issues. Low carb can exacerbate this and further aggravate thyroid function leading to hair loss, low body temp, and so on. Some people also find they have impaired energy on low carb diets and find it hard to do their usual daily activities and exercise.

    ETA: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/how-m...#axzz2Y7M9xsNy
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcampo View Post
    Why wouldn't Ketosis be necessary for everyone? When would ketosis be necessary?
    Im using ketosis for 3 reasons
    1 to develop a 'normal' blood glucose profile as quickly as possible
    2 to control a cancer- many cancers grow poorly in ketogenic environments
    3 rapid weight loss
    I try to stay between 2 and 5.

    everyone produces ketone's but not everyone needs the extreme of relying on it. you do gain from taking in some carbs with things like potassium
    When I'd had enough of the grain and starched based 'diabetic eating for health' diet (eating for health, my ass!) my weight was 242.5 lbs. On starting primal- 18th April 2013 weight : 238.1.
    27th July 2013. weight after 100 days 136.9 weight lost 101.2lb ; that's 105.6lbs since I stopped the 'diabetic eating for health'
    new journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1264082

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