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Thread: Marks position on Ketosis? Ketogenic vs Paleo. page 8

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Do you know what the "low carb flu" is? It's your body struggling to construct new metabolic pathways to oxidize fat with more efficiency. You took away glucose - a much more energy-rich substrate - out of nowhere one day and forced your body to oxidize fats - a much less energy-rich substrate - all the time. So you suddenly crash. It seems to me that switching out flour for fruits and potatoes - providing the same energy-rich substrate without all the toxins and a lot more vitamins - would be a much easier and healthier transition. When the "low carb flu" passes, it's your body adjusting to a slower metabolism.
    Absolute nonsense and not even worth entertaining. Every single word is made up and you will find no science - NONE - anywhere supporting this.

    lol.... Ok I'm done. I think its enough to prove a point.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Absolute nonsense and not even worth entertaining. Every single word is made up and you will find no science - NONE - anywhere supporting this.

    lol.... Ok I'm done. I think its enough to prove a point.
    Heehee, Neckhammer! You lasted longer than I did. I find the "ignore" option really helpful.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    I agree that there are situations in which very low carb/ketogenic diets are beneficial. However, the problem arises when people are completely healthy and try to resort to extreme dieting tactics such as cutting out carbs in order to lose some fat. Like Choco said, cutting out a macronutrient just because some expert said that it's necessary is a surefire way to cause some serious issues, as we've seen over and over again with people on this forum.
    This. I'm all for hacks and therapeutic diets. I think whatever heals you and makes you feel great is the path to take. Doesn't matter if it's high or low fat; high or low carb. Just find the right formula because there is no universal answer, just billions of anatomical billboards advertising their version of life.
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  4. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You are incorrect. Carbs are not addicting. Individual hyperpalatable foods (often just as high if not higher in fat!) are.
    +1! Take the fat out of ice cream or cookies and they don't taste too good! Also, I think textures can be addictive. Cereal that's been left to soak up too much milk is disgusting, but when the milk is cold and the cereal is crunchy, it's like crack.
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  5. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    I bet any of you that sing the praises of high carbs like Zach, derp, you, j3nn etc etc, did LC at one stage long enough to shrug off the addiction effects. But because you's changed the course of MDA paleo history by fighting the "all carbs are bad" dogma, you cannot allow yourself to see the true effects carbs have for many millions of people who haven't had the good fortune of going LC for a month.
    Dude... what?

    I don't sing the praises of a diet high in any particular macronutrient, but I do sing the praises of ALL real foods. EAT ALL TEH REAL FOODS, in whatever combination is right for you. If it is beneficial to you and not detrimental to your overall health, then eat it and don't stress over it. I think fear-mongering against any macro is nonsense. Context and dosage matter. The obese are generally not that way from overeating too much avocado, bananas, potatoes, and oranges.

    I think low-carb diets can be very effective and useful to many people, I would do one myself if I found it to be more beneficial than the alternatives. I also do not believe sugar and other carbs are the devil, but instead can be a great source of fuel. I think demonizing certain whole foods or macronutrients is illogical at best and fanatical at worst.
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  6. #76
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    Keto works great for me to get in the teens body fat wise but I generally won't do past 8 weeks where ill go to a carb cycling diet.

  7. #77
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    We've gone through this so many times. I know you're steadfast in your ways and you'll never change regardless of what facts present itself, but I have one more go in me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Show me how harmful it is then. You do realize that you will be relying on studies that require abnormally large quantities of PUFA without any of the normally associated vitamins and minerals.
    So given that statement, there are two scenarios to be examined.

    1.) Let's assume that only refined PUFA is bad and when it comes with "the normally associated vitamins and minerals" it becomes much less harmful, or even harmless. Well, sugar, when highly refined is not harmful at all. It is just as benign as oleic acid. If we consider MUFA to be perfectly safe, then highly refined sugar is also perfectly safe.

    The Advanced Glycation End Product, NGraphic-(Carboxymethyl)lysine, Is a Product of both Lipid Peroxidation and Glycoxidation Reactions


    CML is formed during incubation of RNase with PUFA. RNase (1 mM) was incubated with 100 mM arachidonate (○), linoleate (□), or oleate (▵) in PBS at 37°C, and aliquots were removed at indicated times. CML was measured by GC/MS as described under “Materials and Methods.”


    Comparison of CML formation in RNase from arachidonate or glucose. RNase (1 mM) was incubated with 100 mM arachidonate (○, replotted from Fig. 2), or 100 mM glucose (▵) in PBS. CML was measured by GC/MS as described under “Materials and Methods.” Data are expressed as described in the legend to Fig. 2.

    So at the very worst case scenario, refined sugar is just as harmless (or harmful) as oleic acid (MUFA) and well over an order of magnitude less harmful than arachidonic acid, commonly found in animal fats high in omega 6 (lard, poultry fat). And in the context of whole foods when the "the normally associated vitamins and minerals" are present, it appears that fruit sugar is just as healthy - if not superior to - fats from avocado and olives and much better than pork or poultry fat, especially from CAFO sources.

    2.) The "the normally associated vitamins and minerals" inherent to whole foods rich in PUFA don't completely mitigate the damage. Fish have high levels of PUFA in their tissues because it is liquid at freezing temperatures. Since fish swim around in very cold waters, if they had high levels of SFA and MUFA in their tissues like human, cows or pigs did, they would literally harden in water and be immobile. Similarly, since seeds germinate in colder temperatures (March - May), they require high levels of PUFA in the seed or else the plant would be unable to germinate. If almonds and sunflower seeds, for example, didn't have high levels of PUFA, they wouldn't sprout til much later in the spring, resulting in too short of a growing season (coconut has high levels of SFA because it exists in such a hot environment by comparison). The vitamin E is inherent to seeds high in PUFA to protect it from spoilage. Now, that Vitamin E may be just enough to protect the plant, which has been designed by Mother Nature to contain high levels of PUFA. How is that same amount of Vitamin E sufficient to protect humans upon consumption when Mother Nature designed us to have comparatively much lower levels of PUFA and survive at much higher temperatures? It's not unreasonable to believe the whole food is safer than some refined oil - it's downright logical and I believe it to be true - but to believe it is completely protectant is also foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Your statement was complete and utter opinion. It is not backed by any scientific experimentation which makes it a hypothesis at best. To make such a causal relationship without considering the interactions of both PUFA and sugar/carbohydrates is just silly IMO (I suggest you learn those three little letters). You will not find a causal silver bullet to metabolic derangement. Its multifactoral and in many cases (such as pufa and fructose) its a synergistic detrimental effect.
    Read my post. Do you know what the word "largely" means?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
    It is caused (largely) by a diet rich in polyunsaturated fat, which damages your mitochondria and reduces your ability to oxidize glucose.
    The context is "mostly" - PUFA is the BIGGEST offender. Nowhere did I say that the only thing unhealthy on planet Earth is polyunsaturated fat. Metabolic syndrome is clearly multifaceted, but it is NOT caused by carbohydrate. It anything, carbohydrate is protectant and if the SAD was lower in carbs while maintaining the same fatty acid profile, we'd likely be getting even sicker faster. But I suppose when you have your agenda to push it is easier to misquote me and argue a straw man?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    You can eat PUFA at quite high levels as long as it is not in the presence of fructose. Same in the vice versa.... high fructose load and low PUFA.

    Well I say that as I have read some studies in such regard, but when I tried to find them I come up with this instead:

    http://www.nature.com/ejcn/journal/v...cn201035a.html

    "Conclusions:

    Children with fatty liver detected sonographically have metabolic features of non-alcoholic fatty liver disease. Their diets are high in fructose and low in polyunsaturated fatty acid. Their activity patterns are sedentary. These lifestyle features may contribute to liver damage and can be a focus for therapeutic intervention."

    Of course they were focusing on O3, so I'm not going to rely heavily on this study alone. Just thought it was funny that when I go to find something showing fructose is OK without too much PUFA this is what I get.
    Did you even read that "study?"

    There is zero information. None. Zip. Nada. They took a bunch of fat, prediabetic children and drew what conclusions exactly? What were the sources of saturated fats, polyunsaturated fats, fructose and sucrose? There are no details anywhere. All we know is that these kids, who were already very ill and overweight, were extremely sedentary and ate large caloric surpluses regularly. I can only assume of highly processed foods. Are the saturated fats trans fats by any chance? Let's not forget hydrogenated soybean oil is a saturated fat - an artificially saturated fat. Or was it organic virgin coconut oil? What is a "low PUFA diet?" Since the AHA recommends PUFA to be around 15% total calories - an absolutely enormous amount of PUFA - having a diet of 10% PUFA could be "a diet low in polyunsaturated fat" while actually being a diet very high in polyunsaturated fat! Because there is no context of diet anywhere, no descriptions and not even a scientific method, what you posted is exactly useless.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  8. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Absolute nonsense and not even worth entertaining. Every single word is made up and you will find no science - NONE - anywhere supporting this.

    lol.... Ok I'm done. I think its enough to prove a point.
    Do you remember how the human metabolism works from 9th grade biology class? The body has multiple metabolic processes where the end result is to create ATP as an energy source. Glucose makes more ATP than fat. Since ATP is largely made in the mitochondria, in order to maximize the metabolic rate, you need to give the body a regular supply of glucose. Cutting glucose intake for fat intake will slow the efficiency that the body can create ATP. This is often shown in blood tests by testing CO2 levels. Cellular respiration produces CO2 as a byproduct, so someone with a slower metabolism (a low carber) should be producing less CO2 than someone with a faster metabolism (a higher carber). But keep trolling.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  9. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    It's not gunna be easier, you haven't given the person any reason to stop visiting the fridge every 2 hours like the've been doing their whole friggin lives.
    How exactly does carbohydrate make a person "visit the fridge" every 2 hours?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    The only way they gunna stop visiting the fridge is if there isn't any carbs in there.
    What? White potatoes are one of the most satiating foods on planet Earth. They top the "Satiety Index." Why do you believe what you believe? Have you actually tried eating a higher carb/lower fat diet made of real food or do you think potatoes are the same thing as doughnuts?

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Once the month is up and the fridge is only a source of nutrition (not low blood sugar relief) I'm gunna advise them to read the myriad of posts where you advocate your non macro restricting, whole food eating, primal eating protocol, it's a F$@kin doozie.

    Yes I did just make that up. It's called "my hypothesis" but because you've been on these boards for 2.5 years and seem to be the boss round these parts, you probably have no time for it.
    Meanwhile the light bulbs are all coming on for the lesser folk. Enjoy.

    Edit: If mark didn't have a low carb component to his protocol, this site and his book would've been a complete failure, because it just wouldn't have worked. Where he fails is in his warnings of the long term effects low carb eating has on our metabolism.

    I bet any of you that sing the praises of high carbs like Zach, derp, you, j3nn etc etc, did LC at one stage long enough to shrug off the addiction effects. But because you's changed the course of MDA paleo history by fighting the "all carbs are bad" dogma, you cannot allow yourself to see the true effects carbs have for many millions of people who haven't had the good fortune of going LC for a month.


    Sent from my iPhone
    I have no idea what any of this is supposed to mean.

    I have done ketogenic dieting for months and did low carb for about 2 years. I was tired of being fat and sluggish, so I ditched it and now consume more carbs than fat. As I result, I can pick really heavy things up, carry a lot less body fat, can run a lot further, sleep better, have a much higher body temperature and feel so much better the idea of returning to that lifestyle is about as appealing to me as going vegan.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-09-2013 at 08:46 PM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  10. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    +1! Take the fat out of ice cream or cookies and they don't taste too good! Also, I think textures can be addictive. Cereal that's been left to soak up too much milk is disgusting, but when the milk is cold and the cereal is crunchy, it's like crack.
    The food industry spends billions each year on marketing to discover how to make foods more addictive. Refined fats are just as ubiquitous as refined sugars. They may be even more common nowadays. The SAD is about as high in fat as it is high in carbs. What the SAD really is is a low protein, high PUFA, high grain, low nutrition, high calorie diet. I don't know why people believe what they believe. I don't know why someone looks at a doughnut and blames carbs for the addicting and fattening properties of the pastry when they are just as high in fat. But it makes my head hurt.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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