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Thread: Marks position on Ketosis? Ketogenic vs Paleo. page 6

  1. #51
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    Not sure where you got the impression that I'm offended. I'm just typing responses on an internet forum.



    It's seems that you're attacking a strawman, as Choco never said that a low fat diet was better than a low carb diet. He was just addressing the issues with low carb diets that the "experts" seem to overlook in spouting their claims.
    I didn't. I said a diet higher in carbohydrate (with fat reduced at its expense) better supports thyroid function than a diet needlessly low in carbs. I never said eat a low fat diet. I don't even know what a "low fat diet" is. <30g? <25g? <20? Don't know, don't care. Eat what you can maintain. When you start needlessly restricting macros based on preconceived notions you'll increase your chance of developing binging issues since you're forcing your body to ignore its cravings. Eat what your body desires, but get it from healthy sources. Fats from steak and eggs, carbs from apples and potatoes. Not soybean oil and wheat flour.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
    There is no one way of eating that's right for everyone.

    There is no one way of eating that's right for you for every single stage of your life.

    Maybe as a whole, across all 6 billion of us, eating low fat, or low carb evens out, but on an individual basis one will be better for a person, for where that person currently is in life.

    I think the confusion comes about because some people are arguing trees and some are arguing forests.
    We shouldn't apply a blanket rule to individuals, and we shouldn't use our individual experience to create blanket rules for others.

    If someone is asking about VLC, give them information they may find helpful on their n=1 journey. If someone is asking about an all potato diet, do the same, give them information they may find helpful.

    So long as someone is on their journey to wellbeing, it doesn't matter what road they travel by, and we should all just be cheering everyone onwards regardless.
    +1

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I strongly, vehemently disagree.
    Of course you do. I haven't seen you learn something new yet in my six months on these forums. I mean you have alot of important shit to say wich is mostly true in my books, I find this great. just open your mind up to something that hasn't been studied by a scientist.

    Here is a few points on this carb addiction issue.

    •The addiction centre doesn't run on fat. It has no concern for fat. Fat tastes great and people will seek it for this, but it is not what they are addicted to. Almost guarantee obese westerners will go a day without fat before they go a day without carbs. It's the brain that houses the decision making tools that decide what gets stuffed down their gullets and the brain runs on glucose which it runs out of every 2-3 hours. Now is a fatty gunna get out their poor under functioning glucose genesis tools after the BS crash or go to the fridge, you tell me?
    Once they hit the fridge, their brains don't give stuff what comes with the carbs, usually its a whole bucket load of fat, which blows out their calories, causing weight gain and the whole cycle to get worse.

    •Why would some one carb addicted tuck into strait flour when there is a whole range of low fat, sugared everything. FFS a bag of lollies these days has 99.9% fat free emblazoned all over it. No shit. it's 100 percent sugar.

    •You won't find carb addiction if you look around at successful MDA participants (includes me and probably you). My brain and probably many other MDA readers would signal for glucose genesis instead of signal a walk to the fridge under lowering BS as our metabolisms are fairly robust. That's not to say we should generate glucose constantly. Carbs are fine to eat, we definitely shouldn't be generating glucose constantly, we'll wear the system out.
    What we don't do is "lose our shit" under dropping BS conditions and look for the quickest, easiest way to restore blood sugar ( ie a quick trip to the fridge, BS increasing in half a minute). Look at the people with a weight problem, if you look hard enough you will see carb addiction.

    Think on that.



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    Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 07-09-2013 at 09:14 AM.
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  4. #54
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    I think you are both saying pretty much the same thing. The addictive issues of changes in blood sugar are indisputable- it is sugar and not fat that is addictive inside. However, that fact that overeating requires careful engineering of food is also indisputable- it is perfectly engineered foods that are addictive outside. Make something too sweet, people stop eating. Make it too oily, people stop eating. It has to be that perfect edge of satisfying but not quite satisfying enough- that is what food engineers do.

    This is one reason why I don't think the obesity epidemic needs a fat OR a sugar tax. What it needs is a regulatory framework for engineered foods- set targets for satiety levels and either limit or tax how those are met. The food companies have scientists on their side; time to get some scientists working for the public. One food company exec tried to get a conversation started on voluntary guidelines and it went nowhere... This is a place begging for regulation.
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I didn't. I said a diet higher in carbohydrate (with fat reduced at its expense) better supports thyroid function than a diet needlessly low in carbs. I never said eat a low fat diet. I don't even know what a "low fat diet" is. <30g? <25g? <20? Don't know, don't care. Eat what you can maintain. When you start needlessly restricting macros based on preconceived notions you'll increase your chance of developing binging issues since you're forcing your body to ignore its cravings. Eat what your body desires, but get it from healthy sources. Fats from steak and eggs, carbs from apples and potatoes. Not soybean oil and wheat flour.
    Ah ok, gotcha. And I agree.

    I've always kind of gone with Lyle McDonald's idea of set protein, set essential fats, then fill the rest of the calories with good sources of carbohydrates, along with trace sources of fat from meat, dairy, etc. For me, this has worked wonders. Like you've said, you have to play with the numbers and find your sweet spot.
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  6. #56
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    If OP made it this far through, there is actually quite a lot of promising science in regards to ketosis as treatment and to low carb for general health and longevity. In addition to the books and scientist you mention I would suggest you read some information by the following people:


    The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

    Hyperlipid

    Welcome to Dr.Rosedale's Website

    http://www.proteinpower.com/drmilke/

    The Ketogenic Diet Center | The Johns Hopkins Epilepsy Center


    Anybody stating there is no reason to investigate low carb science is either unaware of this information or they are in some serious denial. Their are indeed many studies done already that show ketogenic and low carb may be valid strategy in treating a wide variety of neurological and metabolic disease states. Rather than burying your head in the sand and saying "hey nothing to see here".... keep reading and you will surely come out with a deeper understanding.

    Truly there is more research to be done in this area. I believe that the group NuSi will help answer some questions in the near future: http://nusi.org/
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-09-2013 at 09:47 AM.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Anybody stating there is no reason to investigate low carb science is either unaware of this information or they are in some serious denial. Their are indeed many studies done already that show ketogenic and low carb may be valid strategy in treating a wide variety of neurological and metabolic disease states. Rather than burying your head in the sand and saying "hey nothing to see here".... keep reading and you will surely come out with a deeper understanding.
    I agree that there are situations in which very low carb/ketogenic diets are beneficial. However, the problem arises when people are completely healthy and try to resort to extreme dieting tactics such as cutting out carbs in order to lose some fat. Like Choco said, cutting out a macronutrient just because some expert said that it's necessary is a surefire way to cause some serious issues, as we've seen over and over again with people on this forum.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    Of course you do. I haven't seen you learn something new yet in my six months on these forums. I mean you have alot of important shit to say wich is mostly true in my books, I find this great. just open your mind up to something that hasn't been studied by a scientist.
    I've been on this forum for two and a half years. Go through my first...oh, I don't know...1,000 posts. I now have a wildly different stance because I actually try things. I don't just read. What I initially believed is nothing like what I believe now. I think you should take your own advice.

    You are incorrect. Carbs are not addicting. Individual hyperpalatable foods (often just as high if not higher in fat!) are.

    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    •The addiction centre doesn't run on fat. It has no concern for fat. Fat tastes great and people will seek it for this, but it is not what they are addicted to. Almost guarantee obese westerners will go a day without fat before they go a day without carbs.
    Absolute nonsense and not even worth entertaining. Every single word is made up and you will find no science - NONE - anywhere supporting this.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-09-2013 at 10:08 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Absolutely not. Why would I? If anyone has success following a low carbohydrate diet, it's solely because it's helped them make better food choices resulting in a spontaneous reduction in calories. If you have lost weight eating this way, it's because you're eating less, even if you think you aren't. A 1,200 calorie pile of steak and vegetables is huge compared to a 1,200 calorie pile of chicken alfredo or doughnuts.
    Wouldn't an insulin resistant individual struggle with weight loss consuming a large amount of carbohydrates?
    Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

  10. #60
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    Speaking of food addictions, IMO it's not just carbs many people are addicted to. It's usually foods high on both carbs and fat and the wrong kind of both. Think along the lines of fried chicken, chips, donuts and cakes for instance.

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