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  1. #41
    TheyCallMeLazarus's Avatar
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    The original question dealt with why people like Lyle McDonald, Rudy from Outlaw Way, and many others are NOT on the "wheat is evil" crusade...jakejoh is giving what their reasons are.

    First of all, grains are not empty calories. Orange juice is empty calories. Candy bars....an empty calorie means that you can consume it with little to no satiety. Say what you want about eating a sub sandwich, it fills you up.

    This is all being totally over-complicated. The reality has nothing to do with studies from 3rd world countries, or studies of much of any kind. Here is all you need to know for their reasons:
    1) Avoiding all grains is very difficult. Try going to much any restaurant and avoiding them entirely. It takes a lot of patience and want to. Same goes for social gatherings. It can be done and I've done more than my share of "hold the bread" at a party, but it's not easy.
    2) When you are a young male doing competitive Crossfit workouts (Outlaw Way), trying to set PR's using glycogen bumps (Lyle McDonald), or training for an Ironman, you are left with a problem...these require enormous amounts of calories. Sure, you could eat sweet potatoes (and they do), but if you can just as easily get it from a subway sandwich, have it taste better, suffer no ill effects, why wouldn't you?

    I don't eat grains very often. Like anything else, they are a tool. They produce huge insulin responses and pack a lot of calories into a small amount, like a lot processed food does....AT TIMES, this is my goal. It's not about "What is the absolute most we can do?"....it's about "What is the minimum effective dose to hit my goals? What is ESSENTIAL to hitting my goals, and what is peripheral?" They are prob a bad idea for a newbie or someone wanting a lot of fat loss that isn't doing long fasts or super intense workouts....but calling them evil FOR EVERYONE is ridiculous.
    Last edited by TheyCallMeLazarus; 06-24-2013 at 10:00 AM.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
    First of all, grains are not empty calories. Orange juice is empty calories. Candy bars....an empty calorie means that you can consume it with little to no satiety. Say what you want about eating a sub sandwich, it fills you up.
    I strongly disagree. Have you checked nutrition on a bag of flour? A Snicker's bar is going to knock bread or oatmeal for a loop nutritionally. If a Snickers bar is empty calories, so are grains. Besides, the context of the statement was "comparatively empty." Compare any grain to steak, salmon, eggs, cheese, milk, broccoli or pineapple. Are an of them going to hold up on a calorie-for-calorie basis? And you haven't acknowledged the high phytate content. Most of what is in a grain the body can't even use. Compare that to steak and eggs, which the body can use almost all of.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I strongly disagree. Have you checked nutrition on a bag of flour? A Snicker's bar is going to knock bread or oatmeal for a loop nutritionally. If a Snickers bar is empty calories, so are grains. Besides, the context of the statement was "comparatively empty." Compare any grain to steak, salmon, eggs, cheese, milk, broccoli or pineapple. Are an of them going to hold up on a calorie-for-calorie basis? And you haven't acknowledged the high phytate content. Most of what is in a grain the body can't even use. Compare that to steak and eggs, which the body can use almost all of.
    Comparing grains to steak and eggs is a bit ridiculous, and of course no one is arguing that someone should eat grains in lieu of protein sources.
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  4. #44
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    No, the questions that haven't been addressed are my #1 and #2.

    I.E. This weekend was a LONG hike, which I did after fasting for 36 hours. Seeing as my basal rate is about 2900 Kcal, it is fair to say that between my fasting and hiking for 7 hours, I had created a HUGE calorie deficit. It is MY core paleo principle, and I don't care to argue it now. Fasting is human.

    So conservatively, the fasting created a deficit of of 4300 kCal just at basal rate.
    Then add in the hiking for 7 hours (it was actually longer, but just for the math). Using a basic calorie calculator as a guide, at 185 lbs, walking up hill half of it with 25lb pack on, that burned about 600kCal per hour. That's 4200 kCal of deficit I had created by Saturday night from hiking alone. That is 8500kCal deficit total. I am in huge glycogen deficit. Any carbs I take in are going to go to refilling it. Insulin is my friend at that moment. It is the energy gatekeeper to help me recover.

    Now, the question is this, and it is why those people previously mentioned don't 100% outlaw grains....if I can use some grains, along with the turkey legs I made and a lot of veg (I made fajitas), to makeup that calorie deficit....AND I have no ill effects, why would I not do it?

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    (Saying "eat a sweet potato instead" isn't an answer. You could do that down to "eat skirt steak and green peppers for every meal". Life needs enjoyment. Taste matters.)

    "A good teacher knows the rules. A great pupil knows the exceptions."

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    Comparing grains to steak and eggs is a bit ridiculous, and of course no one is arguing that someone should eat grains in lieu of protein sources.
    That's the whole point. Comparing grains to real food is ridiculous. That's the reason to eat it. They universally suck as a source of nutrition.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    That's the whole point. Comparing grains to real food is ridiculous. That's the reason to eat it. They universally suck as a source of nutrition.
    Comparing protein sources to a carbohydrate source, in terms of overall nutrition and physiological effects on the body, is foolish.
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  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
    No, the questions that haven't been addressed are my #1 and #2.

    I.E. This weekend was a LONG hike, which I did after fasting for 36 hours. Seeing as my basal rate is about 2900 Kcal, it is fair to say that between my fasting and hiking for 7 hours, I had created a HUGE calorie deficit. It is MY core paleo principle, and I don't care to argue it now. Fasting is human.

    So conservatively, the fasting created a deficit of of 4300 kCal just at basal rate.
    Then add in the hiking for 7 hours (it was actually longer, but just for the math). Using a basic calorie calculator as a guide, at 185 lbs, walking up hill half of it with 25lb pack on, that burned about 600kCal per hour. That's 4200 kCal of deficit I had created by Saturday night from hiking alone. That is 8500kCal deficit total. I am in huge glycogen deficit. Any carbs I take in are going to go to refilling it. Insulin is my friend at that moment. It is the energy gatekeeper to help me recover.

    Now, the question is this, and it is why those people previously mentioned don't 100% outlaw grains....if I can use some grains, along with the turkey legs I made and a lot of veg (I made fajitas), to makeup that calorie deficit....AND I have no ill effects, why would I not do it?

    Disclaimer:
    (Saying "eat a sweet potato instead" isn't an answer. You could do that down to "eat skirt steak and green peppers for every meal". Life needs enjoyment. Taste matters.)

    "A good teacher knows the rules. A great pupil knows the exceptions."
    I can not tell you why YOU would not, but I can tell you why I would not.... and why I recommend many others don't. Some of that is in my answer on the first page. And guess what. Insulin and carbs are way down on the list as to reasons to exclude them. Fact its so low I wouldn't even bother going that far.

    Assuming you wish to eat grains though WAPF is the resource I would use to produce those with the least likelihood of ill effect. Not to mention we all know that "grains" are on a continuum of rice (fairly inert) - GMO dwarf wheat (this aint food). So if someone is choosing to include nutritionally devoid items simply for caloric load then choose that item and prep method wisely.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    Comparing protein sources to a carbohydrate source, in terms of overall nutrition and physiological effects on the body, is foolish.
    What's the nutrition you get from carbs, other than calories?

    And can't you get calories pretty easily from fat OR carbs? Or even protein?
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

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    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
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  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    What's the nutrition you get from carbs, other than calories?

    And can't you get calories pretty easily from fat OR carbs? Or even protein?
    Carbs are necessary to fuel intense activity, they can be protein sparing in the instance of a caloric deficit, they taste good (and therefore are great for adherence to the diet), they replenish glycogen stores (which, again, are needed to fuel intense activity).

    Not really sure what you're trying to say, maybe you could re-phrase?
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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Insulin and carbs are way down on the list as to reasons to exclude them. Fact its so low I wouldn't even bother going that far.
    Please expand on what you're getting at here.
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