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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    Okay, call them whatever you wish. Again, there are healthy people who eat large amounts of grains. It's the full context of the diet that matters.
    And those that eat the highest proportion of grains also tend to be the most malnourished.
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  2. #22
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    Testing is not conclusive, regardless of how many tests are run. The fact is I was unemployed when I discovered I was gluten intolerant and eliminated the symptoms with diet. Had I been tested at that time, I would have spent a decade uninsurable. If I had a doctor, a good job, and an insurance company that was willing to pay for a biopsy, it would have made sense to have a biopsy at that point. Now testing would make no sense. And the state of diagnostics is that if the patient reliably finds that symptoms go away when gluten is eliminated and return when it is eaten, the doctor is likely going to diagnose intolerance on that basis alone, even if the tests come out negative.
    I'm sorry, your situation sounds very unfortunate and I hope things are better now. Realize that I never said anything disputing the fact that tests are unreliable. I even said earlier that if someone is concerned about gluten, they should try the elimination method.

    Between people with celiac, people with non-celiac gluten intolerance, and people with wheat allergies, that is what I would describe as a large percentage of the public that must avoid consuming wheat or gluten at all cost.
    I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, because I feel that this is a vast over generalization.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    Please do you research she is paid for by the Grains Food Foundation Go with the Grain | About Us | Nutrition Experts
    So what did you find in her rebuttal paper that is false?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dirlot View Post
    And those that eat the highest proportion of grains also tend to be the most malnourished.
    Studies? Also, those that eat higher portions of grains often tend to have a horrible diet overall. Saying that grains are the factor causing all of the issues is overly simplistic, and ignoring context of the overall diet.
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    What frustrates me about nutrition is that so much of the information comes from observational studies. It seems like the other side (paleo or CW) always forgets to account for a variable. Hopefully, technology will remedy this in the future. Personally, I didn't switch to primal because Mark used a lot of studies to prove his point. I was curious about what he was saying, so I experimented. Eating oatmeal or sandwiches made me feel lethargic, while eating bacon and eggs or big ol' salads made me feel energetic. That's all the proof I need .
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  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    What frustrates me about nutrition is that so much of the information comes from observational studies. It seems like the other side (paleo or CW) always forgets to account for a variable. Hopefully, technology will remedy this in the future. Personally, I didn't switch to primal because Mark used a lot of studies to prove his point. I was curious about what he was saying, so I experimented. Eating oatmeal or sandwiches made me feel lethargic, while eating bacon and eggs or big ol' salads made me feel energetic. That's all the proof I need .
    Great points. I love Mark's work because he makes it practical and his program works for so many people. The research is important, but as you said, there are so many limitations that you must be able to fill in the gaps with personal experience and individualization.

    That's why it's impossible to create a one-size fits all diet; there's not a single dietary approach that will work for everyone. I think this is a good thing, as it forces people to do their research and find out what works best for them through trial and error and personal experience.
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  6. #26
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    The question still remains,
    What nutritional benefit does wheat (grains) provide that cannot be easily and arguably more safely provided by other foods?
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    That's why it's impossible to create a one-size fits all diet; there's not a single dietary approach that will work for everyone. I think this is a good thing, as it forces people to do their research and find out what works best for them through trial and error and personal experience.
    Bingo! Everybody's unique.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    The question still remains,
    What nutritional benefit does wheat (grains) provide that cannot be easily and arguably more safely provided by other foods?
    This is certainly a valid question.

    There have been studies that suggest that whole grains are very high in betaine in comparison to other foods, including vegetables. Betaine has been shown to improve liver, heart, and kidney health.

    Info on the benefits of betaine: (Betaine in human nutrition)
    Hypotheses that betaine gives grains cardio-protective properties (New hypotheses for the health-protective mechan... [Nutr Res Rev. 2010] - PubMed - NCBI)

    In my opinion, we still don't have enough data to truly say that grains are unsafe for the wide majority of the population.

    I also want to address something that irks me a bit. When people discuss the dangers of grains and mention lectins and phytic acid, do they forget that vegetables contain the phytic acid defense systems as well? (This isn't directed at anyone, just an observation).
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    I also want to address something that irks me a bit. When people discuss the dangers of grains and mention lectins and phytic acid, do they forget that vegetables contain the phytic acid defense systems as well? (This isn't directed at anyone, just an observation).
    I think the biggest issue there is that seeds and the bran/hulls around them tend to have the highest concentrations of phytic acid, in addition to typically being processed in ways that people consume massive amounts of them. Take grains and legumes out of your diet and you eliminate the vast majority of the phytic acid you consume.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quies View Post
    I think the biggest issue there is that seeds and the bran/hulls around them tend to have the highest concentrations of phytic acid, in addition to typically being processed in ways that people consume massive amounts of them. Take grains and legumes out of your diet and you eliminate the vast majority of the phytic acid you consume.
    But then there's the question: is phytic acid always bad?

    Just read an interesting article referencing several studies suggesting that phytates may have anti-cancer properties.

    Lucas Tafur: Is phytate really a problem?
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