Page 6 of 11 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Results 51 to 60 of 105

Thread: Carbohydrate is good for diabetes page 6

  1. #51
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    Primal Fuel
    Quote Originally Posted by CarbDodger View Post
    Some of you might have seen the diagram below before. I'm well acquainted with it and ate like this from 2008 -2012, really strictly in 2012 with my diet consisting of 70% grains, plus vegetables and fruit, everything low fat, almost vegetarian, no red meat.

    I had to start using medication as my beta cells couldn't cope, then insulin, then off insulin ,then on an insulin then off the pump.
    Prior to to 2008 I was never fat always under my BMI but from 2008 I gained slowly-less than 1/2lb a week but consistently. constantly being told the weight gain was OK-less important than blood sugar control so I stuck with it until i became 100lb overweight. All this time I felt like crap but was desperate to be healthy.

    Christmas day i found myself looking at my dinner, healthy, white turkey meat, vegetables, fat free potatoes and my husbands dinner consisting of loads of turkey meat and skin, loads of sausage wrapped in bacon, butter oozing on the few potatoes and veg. It was a WTF moment - he has a nigh perfect body maybe a wee bit thin on the legs and I am this 240+ blob yet I'm the one eating healthy and staying under my calorie limit.

    A normal person can lose weight on any diet but i find it hard to believe anyone can find a high carb diet healthy in the long term.
    Your pancreas is constantly working to balance these, even in the thin, and this is where beta cell burnout comes in. I look at some of the high carb proponents and believe eventually they'll regret this, I hope they wont and will get lucky, but not all of them will.
    When you look at peak stats of type 2 diagnosis you get a spike at 40 and then the incidence stays high - paying for a lifetime of damage. Gorbag for example doesn't talk much about his fasting BG of 6.5 and thinks its OK as it comes down later but he chooses to look after his body his own way.

    The low carb suits both my blood sugar (fasting now 5.2; postprandial 6.4 on metformin only) and my metabolism (65lb weight loss) and is hopefully stunting my cancer (next microscopial exam mid July).
    I know my health is better- for a start I feel it, also my blood panel is excellent, consistently. My peak flow is vastly improved as is nerve conductivity. My blood pressure is normal on no medication now. HDL LDL TRIGS etc in perfect balance according both to griff and what the Dr wants to see. I no longer take a statin
    I have no complaints and am on a perfect diet for Me
    I don't see how this is relevant to carbohydrate at all. Your diet, by your own admission, was loaded with grains and contained next to zero fat soluble vitamins or any foods with any measurable nutrition. Your issues likely had absolutely nothing to do with carbohydrate intake. Your insulin sensitivity dropped because you were completely malnourished and deficient in fat soluble vitamins and clearly numerous minerals, which are crucial to glucose oxidation and mitochondrial support. Starving yourself eating nutritionless flours and then blaming your inability to metabolize glucose on carbohydrate content is backwards.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  2. #52
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Pretty sure even Robb Wolf doesnt believe that anymore.
    He doesn't. Robb Wolf used to advocate for low-carb post-workout refeeds until he did them himself. Now he's done a total 180 and prefers carbohydrate. He's also a big advocate of nixtamalized corn tortillas due to the quality starch.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  3. #53
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    Quote Originally Posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
    diabetes is an affliction that causes the oxidative machinery that metabolizes glucose to malfunction.

    Mitochondrial malfunction?

    Diabetes according to you is an affliction that causes mitochondrial malfunction.

    It doesn't sound anything like diabetes to me, but I await your further explanation, or how I have misunderstood your statement, because as far as I was aware, the machinery (as you say) that oxidises glucose when it is metabolized, is our mitochondria.
    Type 2 Diabetes is an inability to clear sugar from the bloodstream and metabolize it into energy. That's why Type 2 Diabetics generally drop weight - they can't store or metabolize the energy due to extreme insulin resistance. It is a metabolic disorder.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  4. #54
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Yeah, that definition by choco is whack. Its not a mitochondrial or oxidative machinery malfunction at all. Dunno where he pulled that. Its a hormonal signaling disease state (type II is). Hell you can't even call it a dysfunction cause your body is actually doing what is necessary to survive given the toxic load of energy substrate being put into the blood stream.
    You truly have no idea what Type 2 Diabetes is, do you? It is an inability to convert glucose into fuel. That's why your blood sugar is elevated - you can't metabolize it efficiently.

    Danny Roddy does a great job of breaking down why high fat diets generally suck. OK, those are my words. But when it comes to energy production...well...they suck.

    There's good reason to focus on the cell, too. A myriad of health conditions are thought to be the result of the dysfunction of the energy producing apparatus of the cell, the mitochondria. Mitochondrial dysfunction is implicated in Alzheimer's disease (Lucia P, et al. 2011), atherosclerosis (Nageswara R, et al. 2007), autism (Weissman J, et al. 2008), cancer (Balliet R, et al. 2011), chronic fatigue (Myhill S, et al. 2009), fibromyalgia (Cordero M, 2010), heart failure (Huss, et al. 2005), epilepsy (Simon Waldbaum and Manisha Patel, 2005), hypertension (Puddu P, et al. 2007), hypoglycemia (Spiekerkoetter U, et al. 2010), insulin resistance (Vial G, et al. 2010), depression (Rezin G, et al. 2008), infertility (Ramalho-Santos J, et al. 2009), migraine (Bigal M, et al. 2002), non-alcoholic liver disease (Wei Y, et al. 2008), obesity (Bournat J, et al. 2010), sleep apnea (Wang Y, et al. 2010), and type II diabetes (Zhongmin A, et al. 2012).

    An allopathic doctor may be tempted to treat each of these conditions differently, however, in 2007 Rodriguez, et al. noted that there were commonalities between all mitochondrial disorders:

    A decrease in cellular adenosine triphosphate (ATP) production
    Increased reliance on glycolytic energy (i.e., glucose to lactic acid)
    Increase production of reactive oxygen species (ROS)

    [...]

    As I mentioned, consuming a HFLC diet mimics a diabetic's metabolism and diabetics, as a rule, produce less carbon dioxide than non-diabetics (Simonson D, et al. 1988). While it is commonly said that those with diabetes or insulin resistance cannot get glucose into the cell, an increase in lactic acid is a common feature of diabetes (Scale T and Harvey J, 2011; Crawford S, et al. 2010; Reaven G, et al. 1988). This suggests that glucose is getting into the cell, although pyruvate is being shunted towards the lactate dehydrogenase instead of PDH.

    When energy production becomes "inefficient" reactive oxygen species (ROS) are produced in large amounts. An excess of ROS further inhibits organization and oxidative metabolism. Carbon dioxide inhibits formation of ROS (Kogan, et al. 1997).

    As discussed here, very basic physiology suggests that HFLC diets are energetically unfavorable and support the pathological changes found in mitochondrial dysfunction. The 'usefulness' of high-fat diets in the name of longevity, hormonal health, stress reduction, or as a long-term solution for "insulin resistance" seems to fall flat when viewed through the lens of bioenergetics.
    Read things out of your comfort zone. Don't just read things that support your current line of thought. High fat diets appear to benefit diabetics because you're taking the defective mitochondria out of the equation - you're removing the dog you're allergic to instead of the trigger food that is causing the autoimmune condition, and therefore the allergy. You're avoiding the issue instead of fixing the problem.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 06-17-2013 at 09:52 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  5. #55
    sbhikes's Avatar
    sbhikes is online now Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Santa Barbara
    Posts
    9,319
    "For most people with diabetes, having 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal is about right." Oh my god, how is that good for anybody? That's a lot of calories and a lot of carbs.

    Choco is focusing on the cause of diabetes. Once you have it, all you want is the cure.

    So far I have never heard of a single solitary person who was able to reduce or go off diabetes medication while continuing to eat 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal, or even less than that. I have only heard of people reducing or eliminating their need for medication or even completely reversing their diabetes on low carbohydrate diets.
    Female, 5'3", 49, Starting weight: 163lbs. Current weight: 135 (more or less).
    Starting squat: 45lbs. Current squat: 170 x 3. Current Deadlift: 220 x 3

  6. #56
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    "For most people with diabetes, having 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal is about right." Oh my god, how is that good for anybody? That's a lot of calories and a lot of carbs.

    Choco is focusing on the cause of diabetes. Once you have it, all you want is the cure.

    So far I have never heard of a single solitary person who was able to reduce or go off diabetes medication while continuing to eat 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal, or even less than that. I have only heard of people reducing or eliminating their need for medication or even completely reversing their diabetes on low carbohydrate diets.
    3-4 servings of carbohydrate per meal is far too much carbohydrate for probably 80% of healthy people, let alone type 2 diabetics. That's just way too much food. Overconsumption of anything with regularity isn't good, and since an average "serving" tends to be 150-200 calories, we're talking up to 800 calories of carbohydrate in a sitting. I only eat 2 meals a day and that's probably more than I consume after an hour of deadlifting.

    I think the first way to combat Type 2 Diabetes is to become replete in all vitamins and minerals, particularly the fat soluble vitamins. I would:

    1.) Consume a diet high in Vitamins A, D, K/K2.
    2.) Minimize polyunsaturated fat as much as possible. Make sure fat intake is skewed very highly toward saturated. Dairy fats, coconut and ruminant meats are your friends, here.
    3.) Minimize intake of starches. Starches basically explode into glucose in your bloodstream, and since a Type 2 Diabetic has issues metabolizing glucose, it will be more than they can handle.
    4.) Supplement with niacinimide and aspirin to suppress FFA's in the bloodstream and try and promote a higher rate of CO2 in the bloodstream.
    5.) Get a thyroid screening. Not just TSH. I want T3/T4/rT3 and I want to see if my T4 is being properly converted into active thyroid hormone T3. Consider taking a natural dessicated thyroid supplement, such as Raw Thyroid if necessary.
    6.) Check my body temperature regularly immediately upon waking. Carbhydrate is useful at raising body temperature, but since heavy carbohydrate supplementation will give you issues as a Type 2 Diabetic, I'd likely supplement with coconut products (preferably coconut milk, coconut cream or shredded unsweetened coconut over coconut oil due to nutrient content) to help raise my body temperature.
    7.) Consume eggs almost daily due to the multivitamin that is the yolk. Consider eating liver once a week to ensure mineral repletion.
    8.) Avoid empty calories and chemicals...basically avoid the Primal no-no's.
    9.) Get lots of sleep.
    10.) Get lots of sun.

    At some point, you should become nutrient-replete. It may take months or years - Type 2 Diabetes doesn't occur overnight. But at some point, you're going to have to cycle in carbohydrate to increase insulin sensitivity again. I would use fruit to do this as fructose produces lots of CO2 without generating a rapid insulin response. Monitor your blood sugar with each meal, and keep experimenting with different amounts of fruits to see what your body can handle.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 06-17-2013 at 10:06 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  7. #57
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    "For most people with diabetes, having 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal is about right." Oh my god, how is that good for anybody? That's a lot of calories and a lot of carbs.

    Choco is focusing on the cause of diabetes. Once you have it, all you want is the cure.

    So far I have never heard of a single solitary person who was able to reduce or go off diabetes medication while continuing to eat 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal, or even less than that. I have only heard of people reducing or eliminating their need for medication or even completely reversing their diabetes on low carbohydrate diets.
    3-4 servings of carbohydrate per meal is far too much carbohydrate for probably 80% of healthy people, let alone type 2 diabetics. That's just way too much food. Overconsumption of anything with regularity isn't good, and since an average "serving" tends to be 150-200 calories, we're talking up to 800 calories of carbohydrate in a sitting. I only eat 2 meals a day and that's probably more than I consume after an hour of deadlifting.

    I think the first way to combat Type 2 Diabetes is to become replete in all vitamins and minerals, particularly the fat soluble vitamins. I would:

    1.) Consume a diet high in Vitamins A, D, K/K2.
    2.) Minimize polyunsaturated fat as much as possible. Make sure fat intake is skewed very highly toward saturated. Dairy fats, coconut and ruminant meats are your friends, here.
    3.) Minimize intake of starches. Starches basically explode into glucose in your bloodstream, and since a Type 2 Diabetic has issues metabolizing glucose, it will be more than they can handle.
    4.) Supplement with niacinimide and aspirin to suppress FFA's in the bloodstream and try and promote a higher rate of CO2 in the bloodstream.
    5.) Get a thyroid screening. Not just TSH. I want T3/T4/rT3 and I want to see if my T4 is being properly converted into active thyroid hormone T3.
    6.) Check my body temperature regularly immediately upon waking. Since heavy carbohydrate supplementation will give you issues as a Type 2 Diabetic, I'd likely supplement with coconut products (preferably coconut milk, coconut cream or shredded unsweetened coconut over coconut oil due to nutrient content) to help raise my body temperature.
    7.) Consume eggs almost daily due to the "multivitamin" that is the yolk. Consider eating liver once a week to ensure mineral repletion.
    8.) Avoid empty calories and chemicals...basically avoid the Primal no-no's.
    9.) Get plenty of sleep daily.
    10.) Get plenty of sun daily.

    At some point, you should become nutrient-replete. It may take months or years - Type 2 Diabetes doesn't occur overnight. But at some point, you're going to have to cycle in carbohydrate to increase insulin sensitivity again. I would use fruit to do this as fructose produces lots of CO2 without generating a rapid insulin response. Monitor your blood sugar with each meal, and keep experimenting with different amounts of fruits to see what your body can handle.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  8. #58
    Neckhammer's Avatar
    Neckhammer is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    7,622
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You truly have no idea what Type 2 Diabetes is, do you? It is an inability to convert glucose into fuel. That's why your blood sugar is elevated - you can't metabolize it efficiently.

    Danny Roddy does a great job of breaking down why high fat diets generally suck. OK, those are my words. But when it comes to energy production...well...they suck.



    Read things out of your comfort zone. Don't just read things that support your current line of thought. High fat diets appear to benefit diabetics because you're taking the defective mitochondria out of the equation - you're removing the dog you're allergic to instead of the trigger food that is causing the autoimmune condition, and therefore the allergy. You're avoiding the issue instead of fixing the problem.

    Frankly I don't hold your or Danny's opinion in high esteem. Go take some pathophysiology then we'll talk. For the record Type II diabetes is very easy to define as its a medical diagnosis that requires specific parameters be met.

    Type 2: Insulin resistance with insulin secretion deficiency. 90 - 95% of people who have diabetes have Type 2.
    Other specific types:

    Genetic defects in β-cell function
    Genetic defects in insulin action
    Exocrine pancreas diseases
    Endocrinopathies
    Drug- or chemical-induced
    Infections
    Other rare forms

    Diagnosis of Diabetes Mellitus:

    (Any finding falling within a positive criteria should be repeated on a subsequent day with another test in any criteria set: e.g., a random plasma glucose with symptoms, might be followed-up with a fasting plasma glucose.)

    Fasting plasma glucose (FPG) ≥ 126 mg/dl (7.0 mmol/l) OR
    Symptoms (such as polyuria, polydipsia, unexplained weight loss) AND
    a random plasma glucose ≥ 200 mg/dl (11.1 mmol/l) OR
    Plasma glucose ≥ 200 mg/dl ( 11.1 mmol/l) 2 hours after a 75g glucose load OR
    A1C ≥ 6.5%.

    Categories of increased risk for diabetes (prediabetes):

    Fasting plasma glucose (FPG) levels: 100 to 125mg/dl (5.6 - 6.9mmol/l) [IFG]; OR
    2-h PG values in the 75-g oral glucose tolerance test (OGIT)): 140 mg/dl to 199 mg/dl (7.8 - 11.0 mmol/l) [IGT]; OR
    A1C: 5.7 - 6.4%


    As you can see the causes are numerous but the "disease state" itself is specifically that of disrupted or inadequate hormone (see beta cell dysfunction, and defects in insulin action ect..) with resultant elevated blood sugars. You can theorize all you want, but you cant argue with the actually definition of a disease. Unless you wish to have that changed in which case I urge you to contact the various health agencies immediately and inform them their criteria are wrong.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 06-17-2013 at 10:33 AM.

  9. #59
    Neckhammer's Avatar
    Neckhammer is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    7,622
    Quote Originally Posted by sbhikes View Post
    "For most people with diabetes, having 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal is about right." Oh my god, how is that good for anybody? That's a lot of calories and a lot of carbs.

    Choco is focusing on the cause of diabetes. Once you have it, all you want is the cure.

    So far I have never heard of a single solitary person who was able to reduce or go off diabetes medication while continuing to eat 3-4 servings of carbohydrate-containing foods per meal, or even less than that. I have only heard of people reducing or eliminating their need for medication or even completely reversing their diabetes on low carbohydrate diets.
    See and thats the difference between armchair scientist and a clinician. In the end the clinician follows the criteria for diagnosis and is interested in planned interventions that work. That and you consider the context in which each patient presents themselves. In this case what can we measure? Hormones, blood sugar...ect. What works? Several methods have been shown to work, but low carb paleo with sufficient activity is absolutely at the top of the list IMO.

    Hey I love hypothesis and whatnot, but not when it comes to real life. Show me populations thriving. Show me some people doing something that works. Thats what clinical studies and epidemiological data focus on. And thats my interest.

  10. #60
    eKatherine's Avatar
    eKatherine is online now Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Portland
    Posts
    5,302
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Type 2 Diabetes is an inability to clear sugar from the bloodstream and metabolize it into energy. That's why Type 2 Diabetics generally drop weight - they can't store or metabolize the energy due to extreme insulin resistance. It is a metabolic disorder.
    I am amazed at this statement. It is so far from reality. Type 2 diabetics are usually overweight and ordered to lose weight, which would help them, if they hadn't also been ordered to eat an even higher carb diet.

    That's what happened to CarbDodger. She gained on the prescribed diabetic weight-loss diet until she cut way back on carbs. Now she's a lot thinner and a lot healthier, but Choco would have had her keep loading the carbs, gaining weight, and increasing meds as necessary to keep from dying even more quickly.

Page 6 of 11 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •