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Thread: Will fit/healthy/strong people be the new upper class?? page 3

  1. #21
    Urban Forager's Avatar
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    Just a general observation of the way things are now: While visiting San Fransisco in an affluent neighborhood I noticed every one looked more fit (alphas). Back in my rural county, where a considerable portion of the population relies on public assistance you see mostly out of shape, unhealthy folks, especially if you go to Walmart where the poor folks shop (betas).

    In my experience those that work in manual labor jobs are not more fit, their bodies are often damaged from the work and poor diet, in addition they don't have health care to attend to their health needs.

    Then there are quite a few people I know that are overweight, well paid and anything but LAZY. It's really hard to make generalizations.

  2. #22
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    Ok, cause I've seen this said in more than a couple ways I'm gonna nix it in the bud.

    I've seen "not have money... or don't have access to healthcare to take care of themselves" as an additional reason why the lower socioeconomic classes are less fit or whatever. This is malarky. If anything they overuse the symptom bases medical and emergency portion of the health system. They dig further into debt in the process. Its a fundamental lack of education on what health is and how to care for the human body that they lack, not access to healthcare. The healthiest and fittest utilize traditional healthcare the least.

    I'm gonna link this cause I'm watching it and I like this guys stuff

    Last edited by Neckhammer; 06-09-2013 at 03:29 PM.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 70in2012 View Post
    Absence of strong and fit people in the civilian populace helps the ruling class. You would not want to have them on the street protesting. Imagine a hundred thousand dudes forged in iron out on the streets protesting prism.
    Eh, these days it won't do much. It's not like the "ruling class" will go into the streets and brawl with the masses. Being a strong dude won't help you deflect bullets, tanks, and fighter jets. It's not like we're fighting with swords where the masses could pick up weapons and overthrow the rich king in the castle.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Ok, cause I've seen this said in more than a couple ways I'm gonna nix it in the bud.

    I've seen "not have money... or don't have access to healthcare to take care of themselves" as an additional reason why the lower socioeconomic classes are less fit or whatever. This is malarky. If anything they overuse the symptom bases medical and emergency portion of the health system. They dig further into debt in the process. Its a fundamental lack of education on what health is and how to care for the human body that they lack, not access to healthcare.
    I disagree. If you're poor in the United States, it is harder to eat better and get healthcare. How many low paying jobs offer health insurance? How much quality food can you buy when you make minimum wage? Certainly there are cases where what you say is true, but I would like to see how your life would compare on $7.25/hour without health insurance.

    Not only that, but where do you get proper education on health? From your doctor? Is that what people here are doing? Is everyone eating a low fat, whole grain rich diet? What about fitness? Go to the "pros" at your local gym and listen to them? Open a muscle magazine? Not only do people of low economic resources have less access to better food and healthcare, there's also a ton of misinformation out there regarding health and nutrition.

    Most of us on this forum are privileged enough that we can buy the most expensive food just because we believe it's healthier.

  5. #25
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    Neckhammer - I haven't quite decided whether or not to disagree with you yet. Well, okay, I probably will. So I am going on personal history here, as my folks and my younger brother and I were a part of "they/them" for years and years. So I kinda feel qualified to speak.

    I guess what irks me the most is you just categorized my family as quasi-abusers of a system, when in fact, my mom was never a fan of doctors and mostly was of the "what doesn't outright kill you makes you stronger" camp with physical ills. When we truly had an emergency room-worthy injury, she relented and we went, and got socked with the bill, which we paid for more than the insured/better insured as this group has/had insurance companies to either pay up or knock down the prices - and which ER visit did put us in hurtin' debt each and every time.

    Emergency room visits due to bitten-through tongues and lip injuries requiring stitches (for example) happen to every class, not just the lower classes - the bill just hurt us/them the most. Today my mom says she should have taken my brother to the regular doc during his nighttime screaming fits when he had many of his childhood earaches - but she didn't, and now my adult brother has measurable hearing loss from it. THERE, access to a doc we could have afforded would have been sweet and I like to think my mom would have done it had she felt more sure of the finances. I feel that earache thing is a bona fide example of access problems causing poorer health - my younger brother could do nothing about family attitudes or finances when those earaches (which were obviously middle ear infections) happened and now he bears the permanent damage.

    Now - I am the first to admit that my folks made lifelong seriously shitty decisions in their financial and work lives to absolutely precipitate us being in that situation. In my mom's case, she should have dumped a husband who did nothing but drag her down so many times that her own children (as adults) offered her airfare and short-term financial help - and our blessings.

    And I wholeheartedly agree with you - education is key. I am a fan of financial education for everybody, because this poor/lower socioeconomic group needs that almost more than anything else. I base that opinion on 6 years of living in a government-subsidized housing project as I went through junior and senior high school, and we all talked, you know, and got to know each others' business. And health education. BUT - how many of us started life as Primals/Traditional eaters?? Practically none - we all here on the MDA, rich, middle class, poor alike, had to wade through our share of school-based USDA food pyramid lessons, and diet books, and health-food camps, and whatever else, to find this. I will not blame anyone for being CW still when they haven't been exposed to this yet.

    And I agree with you wholeheartedly that our medical system is symptom-based - and that needs to change through better education, starting with the medical schools, whose profs need to learn how to build and maintain real health alongside being kickass surgeons and trauma docs and technology-wielders.

    So, part of the problem, if you can/do categorize poor/lower socioeconomic groups as less fit and/or healthy, in my estimation, IS access. Not all - education is most of the rest. But all the classes higher up on the ladder themselves still have problems with this themselves - whom to believe, whom to go to for health education?? We all know the "trust me, I am right" noise out there is deafening when it comes to health info.

    I hope you never were in that life situation where you felt you just couldn't afford the doc, NH, or felt guilt for having an injury that you knew would sink the family coffers for a while. I hated it. No easy-peasy fast answers to this, or categorizations of "them".
    I have a mantra that I have spouted for years... "If I eat right, I feel right. If I feel right, I exercise right. If I exercise right, I think right. If I think right, I eat right..." Phil-SC

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    I disagree. If you're poor in the United States, it is harder to eat better and get healthcare. How many low paying jobs offer health insurance? How much quality food can you buy when you make minimum wage? Certainly there are cases where what you say is true, but I would like to see how your life would compare on $7.25/hour without health insurance.

    Not only that, but where do you get proper education on health? From your doctor? Is that what people here are doing? Is everyone eating a low fat, whole grain rich diet? What about fitness? Go to the "pros" at your local gym and listen to them? Open a muscle magazine? Not only do people of low economic resources have less access to better food and healthcare, there's also a ton of misinformation out there regarding health and nutrition.

    Most of us on this forum are privileged enough that we can buy the most expensive food just because we believe it's healthier.
    Bull. The problem is still education. Yes, its not addressed right now. Thats the point. No you should not need to go to your doctor to get this info. This is stuff you should learn with your multiplication tables and as your learning to read. I'm talking about actual health, not some bullcrap "what do I take for this?". Thats where the system is broke. Commercials got the undereducated chasing their tails. More drugs and more surgeries ARE NOT the answers for them (or any of us). Never has been never will be. Its about having the information available to make better choices with the limited funds they do have.

    As for me, I plan to "stay out of the belly of the beast" as Doug puts it. I don't go to medical doctors for health. I use them for what they are good at, catastrophic care.

    Oh and since I just read crabbycakes.... I'm inditing the system, not anyone who is using it. I get to see hospital bills routinely and its just sick what they do. The charges are absurdly high just to get a better reimbursment and cash in on the good insurance policies. For instance an Abdominal CT scan goes for almost 3500 dollars. Got insurance? Its adjusted down to 395. No insurance? Sorry that'll be 3500 to you. How rediculous is that? It's absolutely sick that the people without insurance get a rate nearly 10x higher! The systems broke..... thats the point.... do everything in your power to stay out of the system. Thats why I'm saying education about real health principles is key and something that every single person is entitled to!

    I'm not saying changing any of this is an easy or overnight fix. Just saying that when our health system itself is a part of the problem doubling down and offering more of it to more people sure ain't going to fix anything.

    If anyone is interested the institute for alternative futures did one for "primary care" in the US http://www.altfutures.com/pubs/pc202...5Scenarios.pdf

    I'm hedging my bets toward scenario 4 "I am my own medical home". This scenario has the best chance for education of the masses IMO.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 06-09-2013 at 06:35 PM.

  7. #27
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    Looking for health care when you're uninsured before it's an emergency means you have to pay doctors in advance for all services rendered. If you put it off, there's a good chance you may get better and not have to see a doctor at all. Otherwise you may end up at the ER, where they will treat you and set up a payment plan for you. It's not cheap, but if the doctor won't treat you, it's your only option.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Bull. The problem is still education. Yes, its not addressed right now. Thats the point. No you should not need to go to your doctor to get this info. This is stuff you should learn with your multiplication tables and as your learning to read. I'm talking about actual health, not some bullcrap "what do I take for this?". Thats where the system is broke. Commercials got the undereducated chasing their tails. More drugs and more surgeries ARE NOT the answers for them (or any of us). Never has been never will be. Its about having the information available to make better choices with the limited funds they do have.

    As for me, I plan to "stay out of the belly of the beast" as Doug puts it. I don't go to medical doctors for health. I use them for what they are good at, catastrophic care.

    Oh and since I just read crabbycakes.... I'm inditing the system, not anyone who is using it. I get to see hospital bills routinely and its just sick what they do. The charges are absurdly high just to get a better reimbursment and cash in on the good insurance policies. For instance an Abdominal CT scan goes for almost 3500 dollars. Got insurance? Its adjusted down to 395. No insurance? Sorry that'll be 3500 to you. How rediculous is that? It's absolutely sick that the people without insurance get a rate nearly 10x higher! The systems broke..... thats the point.... do everything in your power to stay out of the system. Thats why I'm saying education about real health principles is key and something that every single person is entitled to!
    So it's the lower classes' fault that the education and healthcare systems are broken? Not having money has no effect on better access to education and knowledge? Would you be on this forum if you were born in a trailer park?

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I'm gonna link this cause I'm watching it and I like this guys stuff

    I watched it - great video.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    So it's the lower classes' fault that the education and healthcare systems are broken? Not having money has no effect on better access to education and knowledge? Would you be on this forum if you were born in a trailer park?
    Who is blaming a class? Not me. I believe I plainly blamed public education, shitty tv commercials, and the healthcare system itself. If not then thats just my inability to communicate things here I suppose. As to the last how do you know I wasnt?

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