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Thread: Michael Pollan writes about bacteria page 2

  1. #11
    Omni's Avatar
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    Regarding his comment about having similar microbiota profile to African rural communities, that specifically related to privotella, which is highly associated with a wholegrain diet which isn't necesarily reflective of a healthy microbiota profile, a true hunter gatherer profile, even with a lower meat intake would have a significantly different microbiota profile.

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    A diet low in fiber and RS will lead to a gut populated with strains that do best fermenting proteins and fat--these are not the beneficial type that produce butyrate. It's an interesting field with lots of unknowns for sure.
    I don't agree with this statement, it is not the absence of fibre or RS that produces an unhealthy profile, but more likely the presence of processed foods, low ph in stomach acid and poor dietary behaviour in general which promote an unhealthy microbiota mix.
    Lower levels of fibre & RS will simply lead to lower microbiota levels in general, not an overgrowth of unhealthy strains, if the rest of the diet is healthy whole foods, I think we should be carefull not to get fixated on a singular panacea of good health, but rather look more towards the elimination of factors leading to bad health. Butyrate and SFA's are surely a valuable contribution to dietary health in the presence of a high fibre diet, but there is no evidence to suggest that they are essential and that high fibre intake is essential to good health, there are far too many exceptions to this concept.
    We do know our GI tracts were designed to maximise yield from a variety of dietary mixes, as evidenced by cultural dietary variation around the globe and through history, there is high fibre and low fibre intakes, the only clear markers indicating ill dietary health are highly processed foods and modern "Frankenfoods". The search for the "Holy Grail" of good diet health is a Red Herring, the goal is merely to lift yourself out of the swamp of SAD offerings in our modern world, and then allow your body and microbiota to do what it evolved to do.

  2. #12
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Not only that but you can get all the butyrate you will ever need from eating some butter.

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    Not only that but you can get all the butyrate you will ever need from eating some butter.
    While that may be true for systemic butyrate, the butyrate the controls your immune system very likely has to be generated in the intestine from fiber by the local resident bacteria. A large portion of immune cells are "educated" in the gut and the local butyric acid is what tell them not to attack, you can't ingest that stuff. It's just like real estate -it's all about location, location, location
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

    http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

  4. #14
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    It may be like the B12 issue, our microbiota produce plenty of B12, but it's produced past the point where we absorb it.

    You know how dogs always have a bit of a thing for herbivore's poops or how bunnies eat their poops on the first pass, I wonder if that is also B12 related.

    Back on the Butyrate though, it may well be a location thing and I don't really know whether it is important, but just for the benefit of doubt I like to keep a moderate fibre intake to feed the butyrate bacteria.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

  5. #15
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    I like fruit and veg, therefore I like eating fiber.
    But come on, there are limits.
    And I don't believe it's something we should be over-thinking.

    The RDA for fiber is something like 25-35gms daily.
    Honestly, I don't have room for that much food!
    And I'm not interested in eating things for the sake of eating them, or digging into a box of "bran busters" bran concentrate to make it happen as they tend to suggest.
    I think that is complete bunk.


    I eat my salad, fruit and veg because I enjoy it... I consume my bug/probiotic bacteria filled kefir and yogurt because I enjoy them.
    I do both when the mood strikes me, not because I need to meet some schedule that ticks things off a list every single day...
    Soluble fiber- check
    Insoluble fibre- check
    Resistant starch- check
    Probiotic bacteria from cultured veg- check
    Probiotic bacteria from cultured dairy- check
    Let dog kiss me- check
    Pet neighbor's dog, don't wash hands- check
    Drop GF macaroon cookie on dirty floor, apply 5 second rule and eat it anyway- check


    Just roll with it people. Relax and Live!
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  6. #16
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jammies View Post
    While that may be true for systemic butyrate, the butyrate the controls your immune system very likely has to be generated in the intestine from fiber by the local resident bacteria. A large portion of immune cells are "educated" in the gut and the local butyric acid is what tell them not to attack, you can't ingest that stuff. It's just like real estate -it's all about location, location, location
    This debate has come up several times. I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm just saying that I have yet to see anybody with anything other than unfounded assertions to back this up. If butyrate is in your circulatory system via eating butter, it still gets to your colon. The circulatory system feeds the colon along with the rest of the body. That's my unfounded but equally plausible assertion on the other side.

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paleobird View Post
    This debate has come up several times. I'm not saying you're wrong but I'm just saying that I have yet to see anybody with anything other than unfounded assertions to back this up. If butyrate is in your circulatory system via eating butter, it still gets to your colon. The circulatory system feeds the colon along with the rest of the body. That's my unfounded but equally plausible assertion on the other side.
    I'm not saying systemic butyrate doesn't play a role - I doubt this has been studied in detail by anyone well enough to answer that one way or the other. Unfortunately, the data I have seen is not yet published. It was presented at a recent immunology conference I attended. The biggest name who presented his data, almost always publishes a paper within weeks after showing the data, so I'm hoping I can post it soon. The immune system is a bit unique in that it is frequently managed by the immediate local environment rather than what is going on systemically. This is particularly true in the gut.

    What I don't really like about the way this data is presented is that it will undoubtedly be used as a "pro-grain" thing when it comes out anyway. No way it will just be pro-starch and pro-butter when the media finishes butchering the story.
    Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

    http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

  8. #18
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Yes, please do post that when it comes out. I would be interested to read that. And yes, the spin will probably be get your "healthywholegrains".

  9. #19
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    Paleobird - I'm not interested in a debate...you may be entirely correct. Lots not known, that I DO know. But I have come across something that really got me thinking. It's a dual phenomenon known as the "SCFA Gradient" and "Carbohydrate Gap". From http://physrev.physiology.org/content/81/3/1031.full

    F3.large.jpg
    Fermentation is high in the proximal large bowel as is the SCFA production. Absorption of SCFA and of water and minerals (including calcium) is high in this viscus. On passage of the fecal stream, fermentation declines through substrate depletion, and SCFA values fall. The distal large colon and rectum are the regions of the large bowel with the most limited supply of SCFA and are the site of most pathology.
    Basically what is going on is that any fiber, whether RS or whatever, is fermented rapidly in the beginning of the colon, doing a good job of keeping the first third of the colon healthy, but starving the last third. This can only be corrected by eating more food that contains fiber so it can feed the entire colon. RS in conjunction with some fiber is the best source. The RS is more easily digested, so the fiber that's with it can travel further down the colon, reducing the SCFA gradient.

    The carbohydrate gap is referred to as:
    Although NSP resist digestion by intrinsic human intestinal digestive enzymes completely, their intakes do not account for calculated human SCFA production (the “carbohydrate gap”). Some of the deficit may be filled by oligosaccharides (OS), but starch and products of small intestinal starch digestion are thought to contribute the most. This fraction is termed resistant starch (RS).
    So, ingested butyrate is certainly good for you, I just don't think it is ideal for complete protection of the colon. A fiber/RS free diet, even one high in butyrate, is probably a recipe for disaster in colon health.

  10. #20
    Omni's Avatar
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    What you've shown through that paper is an association, there is no evidence that it is a causal relationship between Pathology and SCFA gradient.

    It may well be that a high fibre primal diet and a low fibre primal diet will show the same degree of pathology gradient and incidence, this has yet to be proven.

    All the studies I've seen always compare the value of increasing fibre intake to a conventional SAD, I have not seen any literature that suggests a ketogenic diet increases risk of bowel pathology through lack of fibre intake.

    Now I do believe moderate fibre intake is healthy, but I haven't seen any evidence that it is essential for good gut health.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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