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  1. #21
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    Sure, but I am arguing that the ability to effectively switch on primal, murderous aggression is really the deciding factor. Probably a disproportionate amount of men with this tendency pursue martial arts training, so its skewed, but that is really what wins fights.

    my dad told me about a neighborhood guy that he saw get jumped and knocked to the ground, and was getting stomped. He had no formal martial arts training, but tenaciously clung to his rabid desire to harm the men around him, and just dropped all of them with a series of kicks to the knees and groin.

    Attacks create openings. If someone is attacking without a real desire to destroy you, really they are just inviting you to destroy them.
    edit (most attacks are not born of this destruction murder motivation, but are socially demanded, face-saving, frat-boy, poser tough guy showing off)
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by not on the rug View Post
    as opposed to what, just standing there and getting the crap kicked out of you? a few scrapes on the knees, elbows, and back would be worth it if it meant my overall health and well being was protected
    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I thought we were talking about self-defense. If you get put on your back, regardless of the surface, don't you think it's a helpful skillset to be able to fight from there and get up from there? And to have done so thousands of times agains larger, stronger, resisting opponents?
    I am not arguing for or against Jiu-Jitsu, it's a legitimate curiosity that I have. Correct me if I am wrong, but the premise is to get your opponent on the ground. If this is a self defense situation, the ground will probably be concrete/asphalt. My concern is with throwing yourself on such a surface and hurting yourself badly.

  3. #23
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    I have practiced TKD and several styles of kung fu but am now doing Krav Maga after a brief stint of jeet kune do. Krav is the best IMO because of it's simplicity and effectiveness. I am talking purely from a self defense perspective.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    Correct me if I am wrong, but the premise is to get your opponent on the ground.
    Okay, now I understand the confusion. Actually, this is not actually the premise. The premise is to be able to survive and defend yourself if and when a bigger, stronger opponent manages to put you on the ground against your will.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
    I agree--I stay the hell away from "fights" or situations that might lead to them. My days of caring what some drunk frat guy thinks about me are long behind.

    I do, however, train like hell for the off chance that someone intends to do me very real harm or death, when all the avoidance in the world would have no effect on the situation. In that case...
    right on! and like the old saying goes, "expect the best, but prepare for the worst."
    I have a lot of hard miles on my body from before I realized I'm not 100% invulnerable. Now I just think I'm 75% invulnerable. -Mr. Anthony

    Give me a spouse/life-partner who I don't want to punch in the throat when she talks. -Canio6

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    my dad told me about a neighborhood guy that he saw get jumped and knocked to the ground, and was getting stomped. He had no formal martial arts training, but tenaciously clung to his rabid desire to harm the men around him, and just dropped all of them with a series of kicks to the knees and groin.
    Pretty sure your dad was just telling you about the first time he saw Roadhouse

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    Attacks create openings. If someone is attacking without a real desire to destroy you, really they are just inviting you to destroy them.
    So aggression/killer instinct is the only thing that matters? Size, strength, and skill are all unrelated to the topic at hand?

    And your expertise on the matter stems from a story your dad told you about a fight he saw once?

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Okay, now I understand the confusion. Actually, this is not actually the premise. The premise is to be able to survive and defend yourself if and when a bigger, stronger opponent manages to put you on the ground against your will.
    So what's the plan of action in Jiu-Jitsu when someone is just throwing punches at your face? Don't you end up taking the fight to the ground?

  8. #28
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    So aggression/killer instinct is the only thing that matters? Size, strength, and skill are all unrelated to the topic at hand?
    Pretty much- I am arguing that aggressive instinct is THE SKILL that one possesses that wins a fight. The rest of the details, in my experience, are incidental.

    But like I said- a lot of people who have this skill PURSUE MARTIAL ARTS, so you see people with an aggressive instinct using judo or karate or boxing or MMA or whatever, but they only even developed these forms in the first place because their bodies move forward when threatened, while most people's retreat.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  9. #29
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    I am trying to recall a time that I saw someone with some kind of superior technical training use some kind of superior technique against an angrier, more aggressive opponent and win, and I can't recall a single example.

    Lots of memories of various thugs beating asses nonetheless though.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    So what's the plan of action in Jiu-Jitsu when someone is just throwing punches at your face? Don't you end up taking the fight to the ground?
    You ultimately might have to, but it's certainly not the "plan of action."

    If I had to generalize a "plan of action," I'd say it's to keep enough distance that they can't hit you. There's a sort of half stomp/half sidekick to the thigh/knee that's very effective for this. It's one of the first several techniques in Royler and Renzo's book. Royce used it in early UFC's. Rickson used it in Pride and other Japanese fight organizations. I have used it in amateur MMA in at least 3 of my 4 fights.

    Sometimes you're late and that's not an option. Sometimes you have to clinch. Clinching means getting so close to the person that they can't hit you. If you can get an underhook and an overhook and get to the side, you can make the guy basically carry your weight around while being unable to hit you. You can push him up against a wall or a car or a telephone pole if he's not so big and strong. And if you can't, you can put him on the ground if you have to. Not yourself.

    There are self-defense techniques where you place a limb on the ground, but I'd say they're all for "late-sequence" events (e.g. you missed other opportunities to stay out of problem spots) and you never fall to the ground, you always place whatever body part it is down in a controlled manner.

    You seem to have a cartoonish view of Jiu Jitsu like the strip mall dojos with the 7 foot trophies in the front window.

    To turn the tables, what martial art/combat sport offers a better plan of action for that scenario? If not Jiu Jitsu, then what?

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