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  1. #51
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    Hi Everyone, I'm in. I'm following the Volek Phinney model for ketosis. As for protein, the amount that is recommended is 0.8 - 1 gram for every KG of lean body mass. You can also do a search for Dr. Kwasniewski Ketosis Formula, which is another way of calculating your macro distributions.

    I also started my own thread logging my daily food. I'm in day six and will try to keep a daily log. Click the link to check it out: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83999.html

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    Well, I was 13g over on protein for the day. Boo. But under on carbs, slightly over on fat by 3g, not bad I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarissaLinnea View Post
    Well, I was 13g over on protein for the day. Boo. But under on carbs, slightly over on fat by 3g, not bad I guess.
    that's GREAT. Are you in ketosis and if so to what extent do you think?

    I'm not sure ketostix are worth much here. We're not supposed to be spilling out many ketones in the urine, and the type we spill out are at some point going to be hydroxy-butyrate and the stix are sensitive to acetate, or so I've been told.

    Yesterday at dinner I wasn't really hungry, only ate a few bites. I suppose I am in ketosis now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    Recently I became more aware of work of people like Ron Rosedale. I have realized that I failed to really lose weight and be more trim and athletic and healthy due to eating too much protein.

    Protein in excess triggers a lot of the same metabolic channels as carbs, namely insulin. No wonder people on low carb diets frequently don't lose as much bodyfat as they think they will. They are consuming too much protein.
    This comment could not be more incorrect. Insulin has absolutely nothing to do with fat gain. Protein is easily the least fattening of the macronutrients. It has a burn rate of about 30% and is the most difficult to convert into body fat. Carbohydrate has a burn rate of about 5-10% and also is not directly stored as fat - it must be converted through de novo lipogenesis. Fat has a burn rate of essentially 0% (MCT's are around 3%). It is stored directly as fat in caloric excess and is the most likely macronutrient to be stored as adipose tissue.

    If you have not lost weight, you have not been in a caloric deficit. As Mark Sisson himself stated yesterday:

    Weight loss involves a caloric deficit (whether arrived at spontaneously or consciously). Unfortunately, caloric deficits rarely discriminate between lean mass and body fat, while most people are interested in losing fat, not muscle/bone/tendon/sinew/organ. Numerous studies show that increasing your protein intake during weight loss will partially offset the lean mass loss that tends to occur. In obese and pre-obese women, a 750 calorie diet with 30% of calories from protein (about 56 grams) preserved more lean mass during weight loss than an 18% protein diet. Another study in women showed that a 1.6 g protein/kg bodyweight (or 0.7 g protein/lb bodyweight) diet led to more weight loss, more fat loss, and less lean mass loss than a 0.8 g protein/kg bodyweight diet. Among dieting athletes, 2.3 g protein/kg bodyweight (or a little over 1 g protein/lb bodyweight) was far superior to 1.0 g protein/kg bodyweight in preserving lean mass. And, although specific protein intake recommendations were not stated, a recent meta-analysis concluded that high-protein weight loss diets help preserve lean mass.

    Read more: How Much Protein Should You Be Eating? | Mark's Daily Apple
    Weight loss is entirely caloric - it has nothing to do with insulin - and consuming a low protein, low carbohydrate diet may make your food choices so boring and so unpalatable that you will unconsciously drop calories very low due to lack of food reward and a disinterest in eating boring meals, but you will probably lose a much higher ratio of lean mass to fat.

    If you really want to lose body fat and preserve lean mass, the best way to do it is a mild caloric deficit consuming a high protein diet with moderate carbohydrate and lower fat intake.

    I'm just saying - this may not turn out the way you want it to. I believe high fat diets to be the least effective for getting very lean because you have to fight against dietary fat to burn your stored fat. The lower your body fat, the more detrimental dietary fat becomes since it is stored directly as fat (unlike carbs and protein).
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 04-26-2013 at 07:28 AM.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    that's GREAT. Are you in ketosis and if so to what extent do you think?

    I'm not sure ketostix are worth much here. We're not supposed to be spilling out many ketones in the urine, and the type we spill out are at some point going to be hydrox-ybutyrate and the stix are sensitive to acetate, or so I've been told.

    Yesterday at dinner I wasn't really hungry, only ate a few bites. I suppose I am in ketosis now.

    Do you taste the metal in your mouth or your urine smells different? those were signs for me to tell I was in ketosis without measuring my ketones.

    if you're interested, you can measure beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHO) by using a glucose/ketone meter from abbott or nova (although I heard the abbott meter is more accurate). check out jimmy moore's web page, and there is a link to get a free meter from either company or even both if you'd like to test both. Here is the link to Jimmy's website: Jimmy Moore

    The ketone strips are quite expensive ($4-5), but I ordered from a canadian website (Universal Drugstore $2) and it took approximately two weeks to receive (buy at your own risk). I'm currently using the abbott precision xtra glucose/ketone meter. This morning my ketone (measuring BHO) was 1.8 and glucose measured at 89. According to Low Carb Performance by Volek and Phinney, to be in ketosis your BHO reading needs to be between .5 to 3.

    There are other's experimenting with ketosis on this website and on others. The diet doctor (Search diet doctor) is another good resource as well.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dob View Post
    Do you taste the metal in your mouth or your urine smells different? those were signs for me to tell I was in ketosis without measuring my ketones.

    if you're interested, you can measure beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHO) by using a glucose/ketone meter from abbott or nova (although I heard the abbott meter is more accurate). check out jimmy moore's web page, and there is a link to get a free meter from either company or even both if you'd like to test both. Here is the link to Jimmy's website: Jimmy Moore

    The ketone strips are quite expensive ($4-5), but I ordered from a canadian website (Universal Drugstore $2) and it took approximately two weeks to receive (buy at your own risk). I'm currently using the abbott precision xtra glucose/ketone meter. This morning my ketone (measuring BHO) was 1.8 and glucose measured at 89. According to Low Carb Performance by Volek and Phinney, to be in ketosis your BHO reading needs to be between .5 to 3.

    There are other's experimenting with ketosis on this website and on others. The diet doctor (Search diet doctor) is another good resource as well.
    Thanks. I've never monitored it. I'll probably stick to determining it by hunger levels and urine smell etc. I don't think I have that urine smell but I also believe that I was partially ketogenic for awhile before, and so I am probably not spilling ketones in my urine to much of a degree at all.

    Today my mental game rose and I feel really good. I went to hot Yoga and did very well. Took a long cold shower (8 minutes or so I guess, I didn't set the timer) and I just don't feel any brain fog or malaise at all today. At least so far.

    Breakfast was a bowl of bone broth with a bunch of lard in it, a tablespoon of butter, a tablespoon of coconut oil, and 6 strips of bacon (12g of protein according to the package.) I think the broth probably has 3g or 4g of protein but I really can't tell of course.

    This is the first day that I feel really, really good.

    I have decided that once I get completely ketogenic for awhile, I'll have a cheat day now and then, maybe one a month or less, but definitely will do that. Not weekly or anything like that though, and no weekly "refeed" like David Asprey suggests.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    that's GREAT. Are you in ketosis and if so to what extent do you think?

    I'm not sure ketostix are worth much here. We're not supposed to be spilling out many ketones in the urine, and the type we spill out are at some point going to be hydrox-ybutyrate and the stix are sensitive to acetate, or so I've been told.

    Yesterday at dinner I wasn't really hungry, only ate a few bites. I suppose I am in ketosis now.

    Do you taste the metal in your mouth or your urine smells different? those were signs for me to tell I was in ketosis without measuring my ketones.

    if you're interested, you can measure beta-hydroxybutyrate (BHO) by using a glucose/ketone meter from abbott or nova (although I heard the abbott meter is more accurate). check out jimmy moore's web page, and there is a link to get a free meter from either company or even both if you'd like to test both. Here is the link to Jimmy's website: Jimmy Moore

    The ketone strips are quite expensive ($4-5), but I ordered from a canadian website (Universal Drugstore $2) and it took approximately two weeks to receive (buy at your own risk). I'm currently using the abbott precision xtra glucose/ketone meter. This morning my ketone (measuring BHO) was 1.8 and glucose measured at 89. According to Low Carb Performance by Volek and Phinney, to be in ketosis your BHO reading needs to be between .5 to 3.

    There are other's experimenting with ketosis on this website and on others. The diet doctor (Search diet doctor) is another good resource as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    This comment could not be more incorrect. Insulin has absolutely nothing to do with fat gain. Protein is easily the least fattening of the macronutrients. It has a burn rate of about 30% and is the most difficult to convert into body fat. Carbohydrate has a burn rate of about 5-10% and also is not directly stored as fat - it must be converted through de novo lipogenesis. Fat has a burn rate of essentially 0% (MCT's are around 3%). It is stored directly as fat in caloric excess and is the most likely macronutrient to be stored as adipose tissue.

    If you have not lost weight, you have not been in a caloric deficit. As Mark Sisson himself stated yesterday:


    Weight loss is entirely caloric - it has nothing to do with insulin - and consuming a low protein, low carbohydrate diet may make your food choices so boring and so unpalatable that you will unconsciously drop calories very low due to lack of food reward and a disinterest in eating boring meals, but you will probably lose a much higher ratio of lean mass to fat.

    If you really want to lose body fat and preserve lean mass, the best way to do it is a mild caloric deficit consuming a high protein diet with moderate carbohydrate and lower fat intake.

    I'm just saying - this may not turn out the way you want it to. I believe high fat diets to be the least effective for getting very lean because you have to fight against dietary fat to burn your stored fat. The lower your body fat, the more detrimental dietary fat becomes since it is stored directly as fat (unlike carbs and protein).
    thanks for your thoughts and the link. This is an experiment and I think it's a good idea to try stuff out and see where it goes.

    The jury is out on this, but I believe that low protein and high fat are crucial to maintaining health rather than just low carb with moderate or high protein. I believe there are very smart people who state the case for this.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    that's GREAT. Are you in ketosis and if so to what extent do you think?

    I'm not sure ketostix are worth much here. We're not supposed to be spilling out many ketones in the urine, and the type we spill out are at some point going to be hydroxy-butyrate and the stix are sensitive to acetate, or so I've been told.

    Yesterday at dinner I wasn't really hungry, only ate a few bites. I suppose I am in ketosis now.
    I woke this morning and believe I'm in ketosis now. I have the familiar feelings of it, mostly my heart was pounding and that is usually what happens when I first go into ketosis, especially for the first few days. From what I understand, the body will spill ketones until we become fully keto adapted, which takes several weeks. I can't remember how long it said, something like six weeks or something like that. I am probably going to pick up some ketostix just to check today and every once in awhile. I know they are not super reliable and are probably not necessary as long as I'm eating below my carb level, but I just kinda like to do it, lol!!! Plus it will be interesting to see when I finally stop spilling ketones some weeks down the line. It's more for fun than anything else.

    So far this morning not hungry. Waiting to get an appetite so that I can have breakfast.

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    Richard, Posted this on a another thread but I thought you might find this interesting. So, I was scanning the internet last night and came across an interview with Steve Phinney: Steve Phinney – Low-Carb preserves Glycogen better than High Carb | Me and My Diabetes

    one of the question posed was:
    Well, how about if, instead of eating just the leanest part of the meat, what if they eat a 14 ounce rib-eye steak. Or chicken with the skin. Will they avoid a rabbit fever problem, or is that still too much protein?

    I found Phinney's response rather interesting, which was:

    [....]After all, many people, choose a low carb diet for weight loss. For them, a diet that’s moderate in protein may be high in fat because they’re burning their own fat for energy. When you go on a weight loss, ketogentic diet, you can eat less fat on your plate because you’re burning the fat that comes from your inside. It comes from your love handles and hips and so on.

    When burning your own body fat, it looks like it’s a high protein diet. But the scales go down because the body’s burning it’s own fat stores. But if that persons loses weight and decides to stay on low-carb as a maintenance diet, in order to become weight stable, they need to eat a considerable amount of fat now, in other words, they need to increase their fat intake, which should work fine, because by now, their body should be very efficient at burning fat.

    Does this mean I should be increasing my protein intake so that I burn my stored fat? Makes me wonder. I guess if I don't see body comp changes over the first two weeks in NK, I may increase my protein levels to see if I begin to burn stored fat rather than the fat I'm eating. Kinda interesting...guess I have to see what works for me.

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