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Thread: Who's joining me? Very Low Carb - Low Protein - Support Thread page 11

  1. #101
    Neckhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    It was the other way around. The people that ate around half their calories from carbs on the same calories outperformed the ketogenic group, though it wasn't statistically significant. The keto group had a higher protein intake as well, which is interesting. The end result is that CICO is absolutely true in every event, but a diet that promotes a robust thyroid is going to improve the 'CO' part of the equation.
    You do realize this was a study was done by Barry Sears and company (zone diet inventor), so the write up is a bit biased. You thought it was the other way around, but the numbers don't pan out that way when you account for loss of lean mass as water weight and hydration along with the bioimpedence device problems in measuring such.

    Anyway even with all those (and maybe because of all those), there was "no significant difference" in fat loss between the groups. We already did all the numbers on another thread so rather than muck up a support thread lets just leave it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I don't think there is an optimal path, but I am very confident that low carbohydrate diets are absolutely not optimal and that carbohydrate is a superior fuel than fat.
    Your "very confident" in whatever your current flavor of the month is. Its been a pattern. People doing and having success in a vastly different way than you does not invalidate what your working towards for yourself.

    We've been over this myth that carbohydrates are somehow superior before.... the ATP and delta G don't lie.

    1 molecule of glucose produces:
    ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 30-32 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)

    1 molecule of palmitate produces:
    ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 108 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)


    "The mean calculated ∆G of cytosolic ATP hydrolysis was:

    ∆G ATP = -57.6 kJ/mol for ketones
    ∆G ATP = -56.6 kJ/mol for glucose

    Concluding from this data we see that ketones cause a decrease in the potential between the mitochondria and cytosol (ie. Emito/cyto) while increasing the ∆G of ATP hydrolisis, paralleled by the increase in ∆G QH2/NAD+ and ∆G[H+]. Increased efficiency. " - Lucas Tafur: Bioenergetics

    Omni offered some more right here http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83420.html

    And of course there is some info out there on carbs, but this is a keto support thread I'm being supportive
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 04-28-2013 at 07:48 AM.

  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by egyption grok View Post
    guys i was wondering why u had stated to consume alot of salt, is it something needed when ur going very low carb?
    and ooo i still cant seem to keep protein down so much but i have lowered it by 20g i think i will try to lower it more but anyways i weight lift does that make a diffrence? (im a girl and protein is at 110g while lifting ,80g the days im not)
    You need the extra salt because when eating VLC, your body flushes fluids much faster and easier. Salt helps to keep the body hydrated and keep electrolytes in balance.

  3. #103
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    Hi all, doing well over here, day 5!!!! So far feeling the carb flu a bit, but overall not that bad, and doing well staying in my calorie goal. How is everyone else doing?

  4. #104
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    Ate a very light dinner last night, beef the size of about a deck of cards and some cooked kale with maybe a clove of garlic. Wasn't really hungry after that, although this is about 1/5th of what I used to eat.

    Last night I practiced some dancing with my wife and my legs and feet got tired pretty quickly. I think I am consuming enough salt but maybe not. I take 1/2 teaspoonful of fine sea salt in the morning, and then sometimes again during the day, and also salt my food liberally.

    Early this morning, I woke up with a toe cramp. I get these occasionally and I know just what to do. I went downstairs, took a bit of potassium chloride (in the form of NoSalt which you buy in the grocery section for idiots trying to lower their sodium consumption on advice of their doctor, lol) and in a minute, cramps gone. A surefire cure.

    Today I'm feeling good, still feeling a bit of brain strangeness that hasn't gone away. I would say that it's a paradox. I feel somewhat like I'm underwater. But I am actually sharper when it comes to recalling memories or dealing with business issues. So although I feel like I'm somewhat underwater, I'm actually sharper.

    Allergies still better than they've been recently but not quite as good as yesterday. Just finished a cup of bone broth with plenty of beef fat on top that I made last night with 3 hours in the pressure cooker.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by eKatherine View Post
    Sometimes it seems like the "solution" we are being offered is that we should choose to become young, healthy athletic males.
    Heh!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    CICO deals with weight. This has nothing to do with body composition. Starvation dieting will suck more mass from your lean tissue than your fat, and overeating poor quality fats will tend to store more of those calories as body fat than lean mass. Fats in general are more likely to store as body fat in a caloric surplus than carbohydrate because it is a less anabolic fuel source. Insulin is very anabolic, which is why you'll see bodybuilders looking to gain weight overconsuming protein and carbohydrate, not fat. Fat in large surpluses just tends to...make you...fat.
    Who is advocating starvation? Who is advocating large surpluses of poor quality fats? <chirping crickets> You keep saying "Bodybuilders do it this way" as if that proves it's the best. Bodybuilders are some of the un-healthiest people around (I know, I used to be one.)
    Quote Originally Posted by emmie View Post
    "Insulin has nothing to do with fat gain" is totally false, although it may be more applicable to those of use with disordered insulin responses. For us, insulin is a major factor in weight gain--or at least our body's release of too much insulin.
    For me, and others like me, insulin definitely has 'something' to do with fat gain.
    I am not advocating my WOE for anyone else, but please don't make blanket statements as though we all fit some absolute standards.
    Choco likes his blankies. They make him feel secure.
    Quote Originally Posted by eKatherine View Post
    The problem is that people who are overweight are lazy gluttons. End of story. Proven by ChocoTaco.
    Yep, get moving you lazy glutton!
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    People who are overweight are usually deficient in fat soluble vitamins and have a slow thyroid from said deficiency.
    So, people here are supplementing that deficiency with more fat. Why do you find this so hard to understand?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    I am very confident that low carbohydrate diets are absolutely not optimal and that carbohydrate is a superior fuel than fat.
    That's nice. FOR YOU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Your "very confident" in whatever your current flavor of the month is. Its been a pattern. People doing and having success in a vastly different way than you does not invalidate what your working towards for yourself.

    We've been over this myth that carbohydrates are somehow superior before.... the ATP and delta G don't lie.
    1 molecule of glucose produces:
    ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 30-32 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)
    1 molecule of palmitate produces:
    ATPs produced from complete oxidation: 108 (assuming 2.5 ATP from NADH+ and 1.5 ATP from FADH2)
    "The mean calculated ∆G of cytosolic ATP hydrolysis was:
    ∆G ATP = -57.6 kJ/mol for ketones
    ∆G ATP = -56.6 kJ/mol for glucose
    Concluding from this data we see that ketones cause a decrease in the potential between the mitochondria and cytosol (ie. Emito/cyto) while increasing the ∆G of ATP hydrolisis, paralleled by the increase in ∆G QH2/NAD+ and ∆G[H+]. Increased efficiency. " - Lucas Tafur: Bioenergetics

    Omni offered some more right here http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83420.html

    And of course there is some info out there on carbs, but this is a keto support thread I'm being supportive
    I adore you NH. Deal with it Choco. The facts don't fit your preconceptions.

  6. #106
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    ChocoTaco369 is a Kitavan

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarissaLinnea View Post
    Hi all, doing well over here, day 5!!!! So far feeling the carb flu a bit, but overall not that bad, and doing well staying in my calorie goal. How is everyone else doing?
    I had headaches for a 3-4 days in a row, and one day i was just laid out on the couch for the whole day. I had body aches, headache, nauseated, and not well. I threw everything at it, broth with a ton of salt, more fat, more veggies, but nothing helped. Went to sleep exhausted, but woke up the next day feeling fantastic. I was also following a more low carb diet when I began this ketosis experiment.

    You're doing great. It will get easier. What's the old saying, it take 14 days to make something into a habit.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by richard View Post
    Last night I practiced some dancing with my wife and my legs and feet got tired pretty quickly. I think I am consuming enough salt but maybe not. I take 1/2 teaspoonful of fine sea salt in the morning, and then sometimes again during the day, and also salt my food liberally.
    Richard, my first couple of weeks of working out, I felt sluggish and lower the amount of reps I was lifting. By the fourth week, i'm about where I was when I began this WOE. Now, I am able to push past where I was and recovering pretty well. It will come in due time.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by dob View Post
    Richard, my first couple of weeks of working out, I felt sluggish and lower the amount of reps I was lifting. By the fourth week, i'm about where I was when I began this WOE. Now, I am able to push past where I was and recovering pretty well. It will come in due time.
    Hi dob, thanks for the encouragement and sharing your experience, it is GREATLY reassuring. I am going to Yoga tomorrow and today walked two hours. I know resistance exercises are best but I can't do them right now due to a tendon injury that is healing.

  10. #110
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    I ate out, and ate about 6oz grass fed beef burger and a small amount of cole slaw. Later on, ate about 1/2 cup of almonds and two chicken legs and steamed brocolli. Probably about a total of 50g protein. I am not hungry now and wasn't that hungry during the day, but a bit hungry at mealtime. I'm eating astonishingly less than I used to. Since it's tough to get enough fat sometimes, I may go into starvation mode which I don't want to happen obviously.

    I wonder if you can go into starvation mode if you eat a lot of fat but still not enough calories?

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