Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 41 to 50 of 53

Thread: Confused about bodyweight training... page 5

  1. #41
    OldSchhool's Avatar
    OldSchhool is online now Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,415
    Quote Originally Posted by MAhammer View Post
    nice article Drew, have you ever checked out the convict conditioning program? if not it is 6 exercises, all calisthenics, pushups- pullup- squats- bridges- handstand pushups- and leg raises- done at a very controlled tempo of 2-1-2. training for strength not endurance. This would fall in line with what you are talking about for training strength. Do you think CC is a good program? why or why not?
    I've had a quick look at the Convict program and although anything such as that will work to a degree for so long I don't think it is anywhere near optimal for the best results.

    Drew Baye will probably disagree with me here as he promotes a bodyweight workout. In my opinion where routines such as this fall down is in their inability to effectively provide progressive resistance. Most rely on varying the angle with which you do the exercises or by making them less stable. For optimal results you want to work a muscle in it's strongest, most direct plane of motion and provide progressive resistance within that plane.

    Lets say you are doing push ups and wish to make them harder, most free weight routines have you doing one of two things.

    A) Raising the legs-ultimately ending up in a handstand push up.
    B) Doing them in a way that puts more emphasis on one arm- Ultimately ending up in a one arm push up.

    The slight decline position is the optimal angle for working the chest so technique A is the total opposite of what you really want to be doing, the higher you raise your legs the less resistance is on the chest and more transferred to the shoulders and triceps.
    Just because you are putting a muscle into a weaker position doesn't make the exercise a better progression, if this was the case then the tricep kick back would be one of the top tricep builders !

    The most efficient way to overload the muscles and cause an adaptive response is by using good old weights !

  2. #42
    MAhammer's Avatar
    MAhammer is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    19
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchhool View Post
    I've had a quick look at the Convict program and although anything such as that will work to a degree for so long I don't think it is anywhere near optimal for the best results.

    Drew Baye will probably disagree with me here as he promotes a bodyweight workout. In my opinion where routines such as this fall down is in their inability to effectively provide progressive resistance. Most rely on varying the angle with which you do the exercises or by making them less stable. For optimal results you want to work a muscle in it's strongest, most direct plane of motion and provide progressive resistance within that plane.

    Lets say you are doing push ups and wish to make them harder, most free weight routines have you doing one of two things.

    A) Raising the legs-ultimately ending up in a handstand push up.
    B) Doing them in a way that puts more emphasis on one arm- Ultimately ending up in a one arm push up.

    The slight decline position is the optimal angle for working the chest so technique A is the total opposite of what you really want to be doing, the higher you raise your legs the less resistance is on the chest and more transferred to the shoulders and triceps.
    Just because you are putting a muscle into a weaker position doesn't make the exercise a better progression, if this was the case then the tricep kick back would be one of the top tricep builders !

    The most efficient way to overload the muscles and cause an adaptive response is by using good old weights !

    So you would use dumbbells and barbells but still use the slow controlled tempo in your lifting?

    what about bodyweight exercise while adding a weight vest? sub optimal?

  3. #43
    RichMahogany's Avatar
    RichMahogany is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    8,444
    Quote Originally Posted by MAhammer View Post
    what about bodyweight exercise while adding a weight vest? sub optimal?
    How heavy can the weight vest go? How about the barbell? What's easier to incrementally load?
    The Champagne of Beards

  4. #44
    MAhammer's Avatar
    MAhammer is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    19
    the one i have goes up to 100lbs in 2.5 lbs increments

  5. #45
    OldSchhool's Avatar
    OldSchhool is online now Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,415
    Quote Originally Posted by MAhammer View Post
    So you would use dumbbells and barbells but still use the slow controlled tempo in your lifting?

    what about bodyweight exercise while adding a weight vest? sub optimal?
    Exactly.
    Don't give up entirely on the vest, if you have access to or can improvise a pull up bar and dipping bars it will be great for those.

  6. #46
    MAhammer's Avatar
    MAhammer is offline Junior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Central New York
    Posts
    19
    yep that sounds like a good plan.

  7. #47
    claude512's Avatar
    claude512 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Luxembourg
    Posts
    118
    Quote Originally Posted by OldSchhool View Post
    I've had a quick look at the Convict program and although anything such as that will work to a degree for so long I don't think it is anywhere near optimal for the best results.

    Drew Baye will probably disagree with me here as he promotes a bodyweight workout. In my opinion where routines such as this fall down is in their inability to effectively provide progressive resistance. Most rely on varying the angle with which you do the exercises or by making them less stable. For optimal results you want to work a muscle in it's strongest, most direct plane of motion and provide progressive resistance within that plane.

    Lets say you are doing push ups and wish to make them harder, most free weight routines have you doing one of two things.

    A) Raising the legs-ultimately ending up in a handstand push up.
    B) Doing them in a way that puts more emphasis on one arm- Ultimately ending up in a one arm push up.

    The slight decline position is the optimal angle for working the chest so technique A is the total opposite of what you really want to be doing, the higher you raise your legs the less resistance is on the chest and more transferred to the shoulders and triceps.
    Just because you are putting a muscle into a weaker position doesn't make the exercise a better progression, if this was the case then the tricep kick back would be one of the top tricep builders !

    The most efficient way to overload the muscles and cause an adaptive response is by using good old weights !
    fully agreed, but it all depends on your goals. if your goal is maximum strength then yes bodyweight will not get you there easily. if your goal is more athletic in nature (not saying lifting is not athletic) then bodyweight training might just be optimal to get you there with its compromise between strength, endurance and balance

    so, know what you want to achieve, then chose the right tool to get there (as with everything in life)

    btw, all the people insisting that bodyweight training is not making you strong I'd like to see them do strict one arm pullups (one would be enough), or some one arm puhups or pistol squats for a couple of reps. then we can talk :-)

  8. #48
    PaleoPenn's Avatar
    PaleoPenn is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    200
    I've been following and trying to incorporate some of the bodyweight workouts at BarStarzz.
    OfficialBarstarzz - YouTube

    My favorite right now (do these one right after the other) is:
    5 Diamond pushups
    5 Regular pushups
    5 Wide pushups
    5 Side to Side pushups (with wide stance)

    First time I tried it I couldn't do ONE side to side but just last night I did 5. Took about 10 days to get there.
    50 year old Male
    Current Weight: 195

  9. #49
    Drew Baye's Avatar
    Drew Baye is offline Member
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    30
    OldSchool,

    The problem with bodyweight exercises is not the ability to progress resistance but the increments - I developed an effective method of doing this without resorting to typical exercise progressions. I discussed this recently in my interview with Fred Fornicola on his site:

    Project:Kratos – Talking Bodyweight Training with Drew Baye | Fred Fornicola

    For others asking, I don't have much good to say about most other bodyweight programs. They tend to suffer from the same kind of thinking most weight training programs suffer from. Everything I do recommend for bodyweight training is covered in Project: Kratos, which expands on the principles discussed in the video I posted and includes the progression method I mentioned.

  10. #50
    OldSchhool's Avatar
    OldSchhool is online now Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    British Columbia
    Posts
    3,415
    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Baye View Post
    OldSchool,

    The problem with bodyweight exercises is not the ability to progress resistance but the increments - I developed an effective method of doing this without resorting to typical exercise progressions. I discussed this recently in my interview with Fred Fornicola on his site:

    Project:Kratos – Talking Bodyweight Training with Drew Baye | Fred Fornicola

    For others asking, I don't have much good to say about most other bodyweight programs. They tend to suffer from the same kind of thinking most weight training programs suffer from. Everything I do recommend for bodyweight training is covered in Project: Kratos, which expands on the principles discussed in the video I posted and includes the progression method I mentioned.
    Just had a quick look and it does appear that you had taken into account the issue that I mentioned, I'm sure that as bodyweight workouts go yours is one of the most well thought out and effective.

    Drew: The resistance your muscles work against during an exercise is mainly a product of weight and lever. If you can’t change the weight you have to change the lever if you want to increase or decrease the resistance. You can’t change the position of the body during an exercise too much to do this, or you end up doing a different exercise altogether, but you can change the portion of the range of motion you use, either emphasizing the portion where the average lever is larger or shorter to increase or decrease the resistance. In addition to adjusting the range of motion you can increase or decrease the average resistance you encounter over time by changing the time spent at or near the positions of maximum or minimum lever.

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •