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  1. #41
    marcadav's Avatar
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    YB, I've read the entire thread to this point. My first suggestion, if it's possible in the UK, is to call your doctor and request a copy of all your test results. Here in the states doctors must provide copies, upon request.

    As to the thyroid results-- It would be very helpful if you could include have reference ranges, if you have them. Without them, I will make some observations based on the ranges given by my lab.

    Your T4 result of 11.6 indicates it's most likely TOTAL T4 and the upper limit for TT4 at my lab is 12.0. This say's to me that your thyroid is doing a very good job of producing T4 and, again using my reference range, does NOT indicate you are hyPER. Especially, since you don't seem to be having hyPER symptoms and you have not provided freeT4 results.

    T4 is considered the storage hormone, while T3 is the active hormone.There are 2 forms of both T4 and T3.

    Total T4 and total T3 measures the amount of bound and unbound hormone. FreeT4 and FreeT3 measures the unbound, usable amount of hormones.

    Given this understanding, someone can have very good total T4 & T3 levels and have thyroid symptoms if their frees are low. Again totals indicate all the hormone. Frees indicate unbound hormone, available for body/cells to use.

    I was kept very ill because of this scenario. My TSH is always in the hyPER range. My totals are great but without enough meds my frees are very low. It seems y body likes to bind thyroid hormone, essentially making most of it useless.

    Many things can bind thyroid hormone, making it unusable by the body. Birth control pills and HRT are just 2 things that do this. If on meds, taking iron and or calcium within 4 hours of taking meds can interfere also.

    The thyroid makes predominately T4. Only a small amount of T3 is made by the thyroid. The majority of T3 is made by T4 dropping 1 iodide molecule and thus converting to T3. This conversion happens in different places in the body--liver, kidney, muscles,etc-- with a majority of conversion being done in the liver.

    Things that can inhibit conversion include:
    1. Fatty liver
    2. Low selenium 200mcg needed daily
    3. Low vitamin D
    4. Low iron, including ferritin
    5. Too low calories and/or carbs
    6. Over training.
    7. Stress

    All that being said, I don't think you have enough information to rule out, or in, problems with thyroid hormones. If it were me I'd want to see FT4, FT3, antibodies (TPO, TgAb), vitamin D, ferritin and possibly liver function tests.

    I hope this helps.

  2. #42
    YogaBare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    Yoga, I'd be really cheap about it.

    1.) I'd first get a retest to make sure the first wasn't a mistake.
    2.) I'd take these two supps daily in the recommended serving:

    Natural Sources Raw Adrenal -- 60 Capsules - Vitacost
    Natural Sources Raw Thyroid -- 90 Capsules - Vitacost

    Perhaps Derma is right and you're having a T4 to T3 conversion problem. Wouldn't that indicate stressed adrenals? I'm not an expert with this kind of stuff.
    That's a good point: Adrenaline inhibits the conversion of T4 to T3. And I do seem to have hyperactive adrenals (which in itself indicates a thyroid problem, as a healthy thyroid takes care of the adrenals).

    I'm getting retested on Tuesday, hopefully with a full thyroid panel as well.

    I read what you wrote about the thyroid supp before - what's the story with the adrenal one?

    Instead, I'd buy a thermometer and see if the two supps raise your body temp if it is subnormal. If you're sitting at 98.6, maybe you don't want thyroid/adrenal supps. If you are in the 97's, you may be boderline hypo or fully hypo, which raises cholesterol. You should know if the dessicated thyroid and adrenal helps you because you should feel warmer and overall a lot better. If it has no effect or makes you feel worse, I'd discontinue use. For the $20 it can't hurt to do a single cycle and retest cholesterol.
    I've been checking body temp for the last month or so. It started off low, but I've been using Richfield's protocol of very hot showers and wearing insane amounts of warm clothes and I'm definitely noticing improvements: sleeping better, extremities aren't as cold, no major energy crashes: all indicating improved / reduced adrenaline response.

    3.) Eliminate pork, poultry, fish, nuts and avocado from your diet temporarily and stick to lean ruminant meats and starches. Fructose may increase cholesterol, so I'd keep fruit consumption low as well. Cook only in coconut oil or pastured ghee/butter. Consider supplementing with coconut oil, like a teaspoon upon waking or before bed if it doesn't make you too energetic to sleep.
    Nooooo... not my fruit! How little?

    Haven't eaten nuts, avo, poultry in months. I wasn't convinced about fish til last week when I read how fish oils suppress the immune system and that's how they reduce inflammation. Worth a try I guess... Are you suggesting eliminating PUFA cos of their effect on thyroid hormone?

    I only cook with coconut oil and I already supplement 3 tea spoons a day. Are you suggesting this for thyroid support?

    4.) Get plenty of sun or take a Vitamin D supp with food. You may be low in Vitamin D, which would raise cholesterol.

    Other possibilities are deficiencies in Vitamin A and K, but if you're eating egg yolks and grassfed dairy...I'm not sure how likely that is?[/QUOTE]

    I think I'm okay for A and K but yeah, I'm defo low on Vit D. Not much sun in this part of the world!
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  3. #43
    YogaBare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marcadav View Post
    YB, I've read the entire thread to this point. My first suggestion, if it's possible in the UK, is to call your doctor and request a copy of all your test results. Here in the states doctors must provide copies, upon request.

    As to the thyroid results-- It would be very helpful if you could include have reference ranges, if you have them. Without them, I will make some observations based on the ranges given by my lab.

    Your T4 result of 11.6 indicates it's most likely TOTAL T4 and the upper limit for TT4 at my lab is 12.0. This say's to me that your thyroid is doing a very good job of producing T4 and, again using my reference range, does NOT indicate you are hyPER. Especially, since you don't seem to be having hyPER symptoms and you have not provided freeT4 results.

    T4 is considered the storage hormone, while T3 is the active hormone.There are 2 forms of both T4 and T3.

    Total T4 and total T3 measures the amount of bound and unbound hormone. FreeT4 and FreeT3 measures the unbound, usable amount of hormones.

    Given this understanding, someone can have very good total T4 & T3 levels and have thyroid symptoms if their frees are low. Again totals indicate all the hormone. Frees indicate unbound hormone, available for body/cells to use.

    I was kept very ill because of this scenario. My TSH is always in the hyPER range. My totals are great but without enough meds my frees are very low. It seems y body likes to bind thyroid hormone, essentially making most of it useless.

    Many things can bind thyroid hormone, making it unusable by the body. Birth control pills and HRT are just 2 things that do this. If on meds, taking iron and or calcium within 4 hours of taking meds can interfere also.

    The thyroid makes predominately T4. Only a small amount of T3 is made by the thyroid. The majority of T3 is made by T4 dropping 1 iodide molecule and thus converting to T3. This conversion happens in different places in the body--liver, kidney, muscles,etc-- with a majority of conversion being done in the liver.

    Things that can inhibit conversion include:
    1. Fatty liver
    2. Low selenium 200mcg needed daily
    3. Low vitamin D
    4. Low iron, including ferritin
    5. Too low calories and/or carbs
    6. Over training.
    7. Stress

    All that being said, I don't think you have enough information to rule out, or in, problems with thyroid hormones. If it were me I'd want to see FT4, FT3, antibodies (TPO, TgAb), vitamin D, ferritin and possibly liver function tests.

    I hope this helps.
    Thank you!!! That is an amazingly helpful response! 11 is the high point for t4 over here, so 11.6 is slightly hyper by our measurements. But yeah, all my symptoms are hypo.

    Thanks so much for explaining everything and for giving me that list of things to check. There is another doctor at the surgery and I managed to get an appointment with him for Monday. Hopefully he's not as much of a lemming as the other one and he';; allow me to have a full profile done.

    I know we're mostly talking about thyroid, but I wonder if it's something to do with the liver. Liver detox / healing... t4 converted to t3 in liver. And I know this is a bit 'woo-woo', but any time i go for acupuncture i'm always told that my liver is blocked...
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by serenity View Post
    Hi YogaBare,

    I'm sorry that you had such a bad experience with your doc. Most GPs are morons, IMO. I figure that most of the smart people who went to med school ended up becoming specialists, and the pre-meds in my college chem and bio classes weren't really the smartest bunch either.

    It sucks that you're assigned a doc and that you're stuck with him. That's just crazy. I've had terrible experiences with multiple GPs. I described the worst one here (warning: contains TMI): http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread83344.html Man, if I were stuck with that woman I'd probably never go to the doctor ever again. I think it's rude and dumb that your doc tried to scare you into taking statins. For some reason, most docs have this knee-jerk reaction that medication is the answer to everything. Oh, you have this symptom, take this medication. (I think it's because they're too dumb to think about anything else, and it's easy to just know which meds to prescribe for which symptoms.) That doc I referred to in the above thread also scared me into taking the Miralax. (She needn't have pulled out the scare tactics--I was more than willing to comply at that point because I thought that Miralx was safe. I figured that it was just like synthetic fiber.) Anyway, she did pretty much tell me that my options were (1) start taking the Miralax permanently, or (2) risk never being able to go to the bathroom on my own ever again and having to carry around a bag. She literally told me this.

    I wonder if they teach this in med school: how to scare patients into medication compliance. (Incidentally, when I went to the podiatrist for plantar fasciitis, the doc tried to scare me into getting orthotics too. Said that if I didn't start wearing orthotics, my Achilles tendon--or some other tendon, can't remember--would eventually snap and my entire foot would collapse.)

    Anyway...I wish I could tell you something helpful about your cholesterol issue, but I don't really know much about it.
    Thanks Serenity Yeah seriously... it should be considered malpractice to tell a young person in their prime that their only option is to take very powerful drugs for the rest of their lives. Or else! I actually started to laugh when he told me my cholesterol and my prognosis. Age 31: cholesterol 10.4: statins. It was like a comedy sketch.

    Sorry to hear you had shitty experiences too! Healthcare: yet another subset of society with substandard standards.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    Thank you!!! That is an amazingly helpful response! 11 is the high point for t4 over here, so 11.6 is slightly hyper by our measurements. But yeah, all my symptoms are hypo.

    Thanks so much for explaining everything and for giving me that list of things to check. There is another doctor at the surgery and I managed to get an appointment with him for Monday. Hopefully he's not as much of a lemming as the other one and he';; allow me to have a full profile done.

    I know we're mostly talking about thyroid, but I wonder if it's something to do with the liver. Liver detox / healing... t4 converted to t3 in liver. And I know this is a bit 'woo-woo', but any time i go for acupuncture i'm always told that my liver is blocked...
    You might have liver issues. I would see if you can have liver function tests run. Milk thistle and dandelion are suppose to be good for the liver.

  6. #46
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    Hi YB. My brain is not coping with science this morning, so I have nothing but experience to offer you.

    I had my bloods done a year ago and was called back in. I love my GP, she is very up-to-date with women's mental health and has been very important to me over the last few years, even not charging me for about 4 of them when I couldn't afford to see her.

    However, my cholesterol was slightly higher than normal (after about 6 months primal) and she spoke of it as if I was dying. She suggested statins and gave me some handouts on how to incorporate lots of healthy whole grains into my diet. I just took it and smiled graciously. She also asked what exercise I enjoyed, when I told her weight lifting, she suggested some jogging instead

    I don't see the point in trying to convince her, I'm due a whole load of tests again soon, I'm interested to see if they've changed but not interested in her advice. But I'll keep her because I like her and in so many other ways she's a gem.

  7. #47
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    I didn't read through all of this, so forgive me if this repeated:

    Were you careful of what you ate the day of and before your test? Eating fat prior to a cholesterol test can make the results high.

  8. #48
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    FWIW, it was only after a major stroke at age 53 that my cholesterol levels were checked. They almost gave my GP a heart attack on the spot. They were 10.4 and I was put on stains immediately. They caused such pain right from the start that I'd rather be dead; so after a double blind test showed that I was, indeed, sensitive to statin side effects. I ditched them after a 2nd statin reacted the same. Over the years, my levels crept downwards even as my stress levels shot through the roof. Then I discovered low carb, which relieved my celiac symptoms, and lately, I've been investigating Paleo, but don't expect much at this late date. I've had jaundice, mono, years of anemia, and am currently taking thyroid (Erfa) meds. I have been hypo for years, but high cholesterol won't kill me; my mother lived to 85, and my dad to 92. Heart failure will.

  9. #49
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    MDs are accustomed to a certain way of thinking, and I suspect are pushed by pharmaceutical companies to recommend medication (afterall, they are basically to drugs what car salesmen are to cars).

    For years I complained of back pain, and my family doctor told me to do back exercises and take Advil. My back pain got so awful I ended up suffering from whiplash as I was rolling out of bed (whiplash on my neck...from getting out of bed). I went to the urgent care center, and they gave me a prescription for vicadin and muscle relaxers. Months later, I went to see a chiropractor on recommendation of a friend. I had some x-rays done there, and there were some major distortions in my spine and neck, that even my medically untrained eyes could see. Never once did my MD suggest x-rays to see if there was something causing the pain I complained of.

    Another example, for years, I complained to the *same* doctor about indigestion. She gave me a prescription for fiber. Fiber: basically mysterious white powdery stuff in a bottle that I was to mix into my drinks twice a day. Years later, I went to a family care practitioner. Bloodwork was done, and it turns out I was allergic to several things I ate on a daily basis. I quit eating said things, and the indigestion and stomach pain went away. That was in December 2012. That's what lead me here, unknowingly I have been on a Primal diet since the discovery of said food allergies.


    Lesson here? ALWAYS get a second opinion, from a DIFFERENT kind of practitioner.
    Stumbled into Primal due to food allergies, and subsequent elimination of non-primal foods.

    Start Gluten-Free/Soy-Free: December 2012; start weight 158lbs, Ladies size 6
    Start Primal: March 2013, start weight 150lbs, Ladies size 6
    Current: 132lbs, Ladies size 2
    F/23/5'9"

    26lbs lost since cutting the crap.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoMom View Post
    I didn't read through all of this, so forgive me if this repeated:

    Were you careful of what you ate the day of and before your test? Eating fat prior to a cholesterol test can make the results high.
    I'm pretty consistently high carb (low by SAD standards) moderate fat (very high by SAD standards). My macros for March were 45C:37F:18P.

    The morning of the test I had "Primmeal" (mashed banana, egg, raspberries. DOn't knock it - it's like oatmeal! ) The day before I had ground beef, potatoes...

    Even if it had been a lot of fat I don't think it could make so much difference... that cholesterol is really high.
    Last edited by YogaBare; 04-19-2013 at 02:46 PM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

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