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  1. #61
    Neckhammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    My reference to having "high normal" CO2 is exactly what it sounds like. The high end of the normal range.
    If you knew what the range was you wouldn't be guessing 24 and 25... that's low.

    The normal range is 23-29 mEq/L, and all of my tests have come back as 27 or 28.
    I'm not sure why you assume that a reading must be 29 or 30 to be good? 30 is over the normal range. Not much, but it is... why do you think that more CO2, is better... how about trying for 35mEq/L! Or 40! Yeah. Because you're displacing O2, and you need that too.

    My readings aren't low.
    But you can think they are if you want to.
    I don't feel any particular need to be superhuman...
    For someone on a medication that is supposed to put my CO2 in the dumps it looks pretty freaking fantastic. My doctor has been impressed... I'm the only patient he has that is on a zero processed foods diet though. So maybe the the HFLC doesn't really hurt. It's all good, REAL, food after all.

    BTW, that's testing once every two months for the past year... And I'm not in "perfect health".
    (Psst... I never expect to be. But I'm overcoming some serious shit.)
    I'm a 40 yr old, moderately overweight woman with two autoimmune diseases (thanks to years of gluten intolerance I had no clue was affecting me in that manner, no not SAD... the "healthy whole grains" trap), one I've had for 15 yrs, the other for almost 2.
    Remember, I also take a medication that is known to cause problems with CO2 and causes crazy potassium depletion... that is why I get blood tests so frequently.
    I asked my neurologist specifically about HFLC possibly causing problems with CO2 because of all of these forum scare tactics and he said very plainly "No."

    While I have slowly been losing weight on Primal that is not my main focus. My main focus is my brain health. Being HFLC has allowed me to go from 3000mg a day of said crappy drug to control my brain issues to only 500-1000 mg per day using my judgement on a day to day basis, MOST days only 500mg which is the minimum dosage. And I continue to work towards a day where I can hopefully be off it completely. That will not happen on a high carb diet. Such has a noticeable and serious, negative impact on my brain function. Not that I'm afraid of carby foods... I still eat them within reason. Some of them are delicious, and I think a healthy part of my diet.


    ...Yes, I breathe comfortably through my nose... who doesn't?
    Do people really sit around gaping like fish out of water unless they have just been running or some such? This is not my experience unless I have a terrible head cold and my sinus cavity is buggered up.
    Seriously. That is bizarre.
    The only people I've ever really herd referred to by the term "mouth breathers" had NOTHING to do with being low carb I assure you. It was an ever so uncouth term for people who were generally morbidly obese, low in-come, uneducated, SAD eating types you'd likely run into at Wal-mart with a cart full of chips, white bread, coke, and assorted crap. Or the permanently drug addled.

    And no, I don't shove a thermometer in my mouth every morning... that seems borderline neurotic to me if not for the purposes of fertility awareness. But my temperature is always within a .tic (plus or minus) or two of the standard 98.6 whenever I'm in the docs office, and has been for all the years I can remember. My standard is for morning appointments. Unless I'm in my GP's office for some sort of other illness on occasion where I have a fever.

    Also... I've had my cortisol tested.
    My current neurologist is a cool guy who kind of blends conventional and holistic-type medicine. He's young and not American. I think this is a good thing, though his accent is tough sometimes.
    He ordered a full work up on me because I've been living so long with chronic disease/stress from these issues.
    It was a normal reading for the time of day... I don't remember the details as it was just a one time test and I was satisfied with his explanation, and he seemed very happy with the results. He's not a pill pushing doctor... he does medications as necessary and also incorporates natural practices such as vitamins, herbs, diet changes... he sells zero products, he only makes recommendations of things that would be in a persons benefit to try that they can then go buy on their own.
    Maybe my cortisol isn't a problem due to the fact that I practice some deep breathing exercises and eastern type philosophy stuff to deal with my stress from this stuff. Maybe it's because I don't quite see my health problems as "stressful" the way other people might. *shrug*
    Either way, I don't think that the cortisol rises seen in some people on HFLC can be pinned strictly to diet. Perhaps it can be pinned more to their stress over "dieting" which as we see in these forums happens to people who eat in all manners... low fat, high fat, noPUFAs and everything in between.




    Also... I don't at all believe that "two thirds of America is hypothyroid".
    I smell hyperbole I just don't know where you bought it...
    That's like saying that because I have autoimmune disease due to wheat that 2/3 of the rest of America does too... and you don't believe that do you?
    I do believe that the rest of America is putting themselves at risk for getting problems like mine by chugging down refined GMO wheat products by the pound every day... but I don't believe that they are already sick.
    That is a lot of assuming.


    Using a bunch of fancy authoritative language trying to scare people about how LC is going to lower their CO2 and raise their cortisol and then saying that testing those things isn't effective when the tests show that everything is perfectly fine is absurd.

    Also, I'll humor you... according to your "self-tests" I'm better than fine.
    Mouth closed for breathing. Check!
    Temperature correct(in general). Check!
    (Hell, maybe I'll even see if I can find a thermometer around here... )
    Happy and has energy. Check!
    Awesome blood pressure. Check!
    Has less pain and symptoms from autoimmune disease than in well over a decade. Check!
    Brain issues helped by HFLC. Check!

    Any other "self-tests"?
    My hair stylist always comments on the thickness/fullness of my hair and uses thinning sheers despite the fact that I have fine straight type hair... the kind that won't hold a curl at all.
    She also always comments on how amazed at how much it grows between appointments. She makes this comment at every appointment without fail. She says she feels like she has to cut a lot more off of me to maintain my cut...

    Anything else?



    I'm not saying that people should never be advised to eat more carbs. Sometimes a persons situation calls for that. I have advised it myself in these forums.
    Other times a person will do just fine on LC forever, or until they choose to make changes for some other reason.

    What I'm saying is that the stuff that you guys bandy about like you think you are some sort of professional "supermen" out to save the world is just way over done.
    Lots of people have exactly ZERO negative side effects of living on a LC diet.
    Why keep beating away about how you think it's unhealthy for everyone when it's not.




    Choco, I love the "Eat real food" thing.
    It's one of the things that you have managed to stay consistent about thorough your self-experimental, new guru finding, meanderings that is really awesome.
    Why can't we have more of that and less... ridiculousness.
    Just because you like a thing on paper, and it works great for YOU, doesn't mean it applies equally to the rest of the world the way you want it to.

    Neurotic diet analysis is neurotic.

    Just eat real food.


    Also, why the personal attack on my doctor? Who you feel the need to mock him as a drug dealer...
    And basically me too as his patient?

    Without his "drugs" I would not be able to walk or talk... or function normally, or care for myself in really basic ways. Certainly not shop for healthy food or exercise. This is not some over prescribed statin I'm on.
    Without him I also would probably not be to the point where I am in minimizing my medication through diet. He is actually interested in getting me off the meds. He isn't pushing to make that happen tomorrow as he knows that it would be dangerous and I'd likely end up back in the hospital with another major brain event which would take months of recovery to get back to where I am again now... It could possibly even cause me to need a brain surgery, something I'd rather avoid.
    Not all doctors are "evil drug pushers".
    Try and get out of your narrow thinking a little once in a while.
    There are medications in this world saving lives and making peoples lives worth living.
    This is an excellent post with lots of good N=1 data gathered. Your doctor does sound like a diamond in the rough (compared to various pill pushers) and I'm glad you have a good one.

    The other thing that stands out is Cori has had all these things tested and monitored due to her condition rather than just as some neurotic "body hacking" gig like tim ferris or some of these other fellas. Fact is optimal is an illusion. It's an illusion in part because our testing procedures themselves lack the specificity or sensitivity to be prudent in such a narrow range. Thats why things are either considered pathogenic or not.

    Beyond that optimal is just as much theoretical and based on other epidemiological data as pathologic numbers. People just narrow the range based on what hypothesis they are working under and reanalysis of epidemiological ranges to try and exclude the "sick". Again though the tests themselves become an issue at some point of such narrow range.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 06-07-2013 at 08:11 AM.

  2. #62
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    Neckhammer... I had to fire a few assahat Docs first to find him, but I'm the find of patient who isn't afraid of that.
    He checked my vitamin D levels too, and even thought they were in the "normal" range he suggested I get them higher because they were on the low side.
    Definitely not your everyday doc.

    23-29 mEq/L is the normal range for CO2 according to the lab that tests my blood.
    I suppose another lab could use 22-30?
    Or some other website could say that?

    The thing is... I bet middle of the road is just fine where CO2 is concerned.
    Yep AVERAGE.
    Why?
    Because having either too much, or too little, CO2 in your blood has exactly zero benefit and will cause problems.
    Having a measurement of 27 CO2 doesn't make me mouth breathe... or make me great because it's "high".
    It's just a number that says it's in the normal range that gets tested to make sure my medication isn't causing me big problems.
    And having a reading of 24 or 25 wouldn't either I'm sure.
    Isn't it the O2 sat levels after all that make people feel tired and breathless after all?
    High CO2 creates low O2 by displacement.

    Not every measurable thing in our body needs to be "maxed" out people.
    A good portion of our system is give and take.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  3. #63
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    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    Neckhammer... I had to fire a few assahat Docs first to find him, but I'm the find of patient who isn't afraid of that.
    He checked my vitamin D levels too, and even thought they were in the "normal" range he suggested I get them higher because they were on the low side.
    Definitely not your everyday doc.

    23-29 mEq/L is the normal range for CO2 according to the lab that tests my blood.
    I suppose another lab could use 22-30?
    Or some other website could say that?

    The thing is... I bet middle of the road is just fine where CO2 is concerned.
    Yep AVERAGE.
    Why?
    Because having either too much, or too little, CO2 in your blood has exactly zero benefit and will cause problems.
    Having a measurement of 27 CO2 doesn't make me mouth breathe... or make me great because it's "high".
    It's just a number that says it's in the normal range that gets tested to make sure my medication isn't causing me big problems.
    And having a reading of 24 or 25 wouldn't either I'm sure.
    Isn't it the O2 sat levels after all that make people feel tired and breathless after all?
    High CO2 creates low O2 by displacement.

    Not every measurable thing in our body needs to be "maxed" out people.
    A good portion of our system is give and take.
    CO2 is an indicator of cellular respiration. Since CO2 is the byproduct of respiration, having a higher CO2 level indicates your mitochondria consume oxygen more efficiently and robustly. High CO2 is good. Similar to how body temperature is a great indicator of thyroid function, CO2 is a great indicator of metabolic rate. Having a normal body temperature and high CO2 is an indicator of a healthy metabolism. Most people have low body temps and low CO2 production.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  4. #64
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    However... that does not mean that HIGHER, outside of the normal range is "better".

    It is actually an indicator of problems... and if it's too high can cause problems in and of itself.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  5. #65
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    CO2 is the by product of glucose respiration. Respiration includes the citric acid cycle where fatty acid derivatives can be utilised. This releases energy but with less CO2. CO2 in exhaled breath at VO2 max is a really good way of demonstrating whether your body is burning fat or glucose. 70% of normal carbohydrate fuelled output indicates complete use of fats and is found in endurance athletes who choose to use fat as fuel. I wouldn't correlate decreased CO2 production in an ultra marathon runner as a lack of fitness, respiratory or otherwise.
    Last edited by MaceyUK; 06-07-2013 at 12:29 PM. Reason: typo

  6. #66
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    My readings aren't low.
    For someone on a medication that is supposed to put my CO2 in the dumps it looks pretty freaking fantastic.

    I asked my neurologist specifically about HFLC possibly causing problems with CO2 because of all of these forum scare tactics and he said very plainly "No."

    While I have slowly been losing weight on Primal that is not my main focus. My main focus is my brain health. Being HFLC has allowed me to go from 3000mg a day of said crappy drug to control my brain issues to only 500-1000 mg per day using my judgement on a day to day basis, MOST days only 500mg which is the minimum dosage. And I continue to work towards a day where I can hopefully be off it completely. That will not happen on a high carb diet. Such has a noticeable and serious, negative impact on my brain function. Not that I'm afraid of carby foods... I still eat them within reason. Some of them are delicious, and I think a healthy part of my diet.


    ...Yes, I breathe comfortably through my nose... who doesn't?
    Do people really sit around gaping like fish out of water unless they have just been running or some such? This is not my experience unless I have a terrible head cold and my sinus cavity is buggered up.
    Seriously. That is bizarre.
    The only people I've ever really herd referred to by the term "mouth breathers" had NOTHING to do with being low carb I assure you. It was an ever so uncouth term for people who were generally morbidly obese, low in-come, uneducated, SAD eating types you'd likely run into at Wal-mart with a cart full of chips, white bread, coke, and assorted crap. Or the permanently drug addled.

    And no, I don't shove a thermometer in my mouth every morning... that seems borderline neurotic to me if not for the purposes of fertility awareness. But my temperature is always within a .tic (plus or minus) or two of the standard 98.6 whenever I'm in the docs office, and has been for all the years I can remember. My standard is for morning appointments. Unless I'm in my GP's office for some sort of other illness on occasion where I have a fever.

    Also... I've had my cortisol tested.
    My current neurologist is a cool guy who kind of blends conventional and holistic-type medicine. He's young and not American. I think this is a good thing, though his accent is tough sometimes.
    He ordered a full work up on me because I've been living so long with chronic disease/stress from these issues.
    It was a normal reading for the time of day... I don't remember the details as it was just a one time test and I was satisfied with his explanation, and he seemed very happy with the results. He's not a pill pushing doctor... he does medications as necessary and also incorporates natural practices such as vitamins, herbs, diet changes... he sells zero products, he only makes recommendations of things that would be in a persons benefit to try that they can then go buy on their own.
    Maybe my cortisol isn't a problem due to the fact that I practice some deep breathing exercises and eastern type philosophy stuff to deal with my stress from this stuff. Maybe it's because I don't quite see my health problems as "stressful" the way other people might. *shrug*
    Either way, I don't think that the cortisol rises seen in some people on HFLC can be pinned strictly to diet. Perhaps it can be pinned more to their stress over "dieting" which as we see in these forums happens to people who eat in all manners... low fat, high fat, noPUFAs and everything in between.

    Also... I don't at all believe that "two thirds of America is hypothyroid".
    I smell hyperbole I just don't know where you bought it...

    Using a bunch of fancy authoritative language trying to scare people about how LC is going to lower their CO2 and raise their cortisol and then saying that testing those things isn't effective when the tests show that everything is perfectly fine is absurd.

    Also, I'll humor you... according to your "self-tests" I'm better than fine.
    Mouth closed for breathing. Check!
    Temperature correct(in general). Check!
    (Hell, maybe I'll even see if I can find a thermometer around here... )
    Happy and has energy. Check!
    Awesome blood pressure. Check!
    Has less pain and symptoms from autoimmune disease than in well over a decade. Check!
    Brain issues helped by HFLC. Check!
    My hair stylist always comments on the thickness/fullness of my hair.

    I'm not saying that people should never be advised to eat more carbs. Sometimes a persons situation calls for that. I have advised it myself in these forums.
    Other times a person will do just fine on LC forever, or until they choose to make changes for some other reason.

    What I'm saying is that the stuff that you guys bandy about like you think you are some sort of professional "supermen" out to save the world is just way over done.
    Lots of people have exactly ZERO negative side effects of living on a LC diet.
    Why keep beating away about how you think it's unhealthy for everyone when it's not.

    Choco, I love the "Eat real food" thing.
    It's one of the things that you have managed to stay consistent about thorough your self-experimental, new guru finding, meanderings that is really awesome.
    Why can't we have more of that and less... ridiculousness.

    Just because you like a thing on paper, and it works great for YOU, doesn't mean it applies equally to the rest of the world the way you want it to.

    Neurotic diet analysis is neurotic.

    Just eat real food.
    Like Cori, I have multiple health problems which necessitate medical monitoring on a regular basis.
    And like Cori, being HFLC for an extended period of time has done nothing but positive things for my health.

    "Self tests" and MD visit tests both indicate better than fine.

    Mouth not only closed for breathing but all sinus issues from pre-Primal are gone making nose breathing at night a normal thing.
    Co2 at the high end of normal.
    HBA1C in the "really healthy" end of the range.
    Blood pressure of a young athlete consistently.
    Healthy iron levels (measured when I donate blood).
    Pulse normal (Why this peatarian premise that having a racing heartbeat is a sign of health?)
    Temperature normal (Seriously guys, you accuse HFLC people of being focused to the point of absurdity but yet you are sticking a thermometer in your mouth first thing upon opening your eyelids every day? Don't you have anything better to do like maybe take a pee or have sex with your girlfriend?)

    Perfect total control of my seizures with 25% less medication (Yeah, my "evil pill pushing" doctor agrees that ketosis is great for neurological health and is working with me on this.)
    Five years post cancer treatment with no recurrence. Not in remission. The cancer is GONE.
    65lbs of extra me gone. Now down to a healthy weight.
    Athletic performance improved (No problem getting to the top of a 19, 350 foot tall mountain on foot)
    Joint pain gone
    Puffy ankles and feet gone. (Which, incidentally, come back if I eat a lot of carbs.)
    Hair and nails healthy
    Libido of a 20 year old.
    Eyes bright and coat shiny.

    Seriously, WHY do you feel the need to bang on and on about the evils of HFLC when clearly it works for some people? No, it is not for everybody. Both Cori and I have steered people away from it when it was not right for them. But WHY do you feel the need for the scare tactics to the rest of the people for whom HFLC may or may not be right. Why the need to demonize?

  7. #67
    Derpamix's Avatar
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    Sounds like cori and Paleobird are super human, their only kryptonite is carbohydrates... Have we finally reached the next step of human evolution?

    But, seriously, I already said beta oxidation of saturated fats is probably OK, biggest concern is making sure the circulating fat is not unsaturated, it just will never be optimal, but if you're fine with that, then whatever.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 06-07-2013 at 03:34 PM.
    Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.

  8. #68
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    Neither of us said we were superhuman. Only that, in the face of some serious medical challenges, we have managed with the help of eating HFLC to regain health.

    HFLC works for a lot of people. Cori and I just happen to get regular medical testing to "prove" that it is working. A lot of other people don't need any "proof" other than feeling and looking better.

  9. #69
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    Most people are so unhealthy that it doesn't work, and the damage it does in that state is severe. The same damage that got them to an insulin intolerant state in the first place. For these people, low carb is a band aid on a problem, not a solution.

    Also, you forget people are fucking idiots when it comes to knowing how they feel. Placebo controls their life, it's a very powerful thing, as we're all governed by quantum physics. Bunch of people say ketosis is a miracle = oh shit I'm a god ketosis saved my life I feel so great carbs are the devil I hate sugar wheat nearly killed me, and the nonsense goes on and on.
    Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.

  10. #70
    Paleobird's Avatar
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    PrimalCon New York
    If the contest of whom to believe goes to the one who can use the most profanity per post, I guess you win.

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