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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    I argue lately only from a scientific stance, something sorely lacking on these forums built around speculation of ancient tribes I don't actually care about giving advice to people deadset in their views that they took from someone else blindly without actually researching anything.
    I know your not talking to me, but I've seen this as a Peatarian viewpoint specifically. The assumption that our understanding of physiology and biochemistry through science is somehow less flawed than anthropological data. I really like it when the two actually mesh, but if I had to choose one or the other I'd have to go with the observed tribe that exhibits good health. I'm talking more in the sense of todays (well yesterdays since they are nearly wiped out now) HG tribes and observations of their lives. Of course I love an understanding of the mechanisms, but we really have mucked up the interactions of various pathways and caused more harm than good in the past several decades when we only went by the lab experiments. With an eye to ancestral practices to guide our thinking I believe we are just less liable to jump to catastrophic conclusion based on lab rats. Right now we may believe we know what we know, but we assuredly don't know what we don't know.... and there is plenty of the latter. I'm sure that was said better by someone else, but I forget who or how it was stated. You get the gist of it though.

    Anthropology will always have the problem of too many variables, and lab science will always have the problem of reductionistic viewpoint to an extent that real world application isn't tenable in many cases. I don't see any reason to use either exclusively really.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 06-06-2013 at 02:20 PM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    This.
    100%.



    However...
    The fear mongering against LC that is constantly going on from some of the high carb crown is down right ridiculous.
    Hahaha, low carb fear mongering. Classic.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    I know your not talking to me, but I've seen this as a Peatarian viewpoint specifically. The assumption that our understanding of physiology and biochemistry through science is somehow less flawed than anthropological data. I really like it when the two actually mesh, but if I had to choose one or the other I'd have to go with the observed tribe that exhibits good health. I'm talking more in the sense of todays (well yesterdays since they are nearly wiped out now) HG tribes and observations of their lives. Of course I love an understanding of the mechanisms, but we really have mucked up the interactions of various pathways and caused more harm than good in the past several decades when we only went by the lab experiments. With an eye to ancestral practices to guide our thinking I believe we are just less liable to jump to catastrophic conclusion based on lab rats. Right now we may believe we know what we know, but we assuredly don't know what we don't know.... and there is plenty of the latter. I'm sure that was said better by someone else, but I forget who or how it was stated. You get the gist of it though.

    Anthropology will always have the problem of too many variables, and lab science will always have the problem of reductionistic viewpoint to an extent that real world application isn't tenable in many cases. I don't see any reason to use either exclusively really.
    I actually agree to some extent, it is interesting when well thought out; but alas, that is the problem, it rarely is, eg; Lustig's video. I do agree with the fact biological science does deal a lot in absolutes, there are no variables, but I don't think we're all that different when everything is working the way it's supposed to. This is my opinion though, I won't discredit yours.

    Despite being on opposite ends of the diet spectrum, I do appreciate your input, because it's often well thought out. I'm not completely narrow-minded, and I feel inquisitive minds drive the world.
    Longing is the agony of the nearness of the distant

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Hahaha, low carb fear mongering. Classic.
    Spinning it on vinyl right now.
    Longing is the agony of the nearness of the distant

  5. #55
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    Derpamix why on Earth did you link me to this thread? This is an incredible cluster-f.

    Are you familiar with triage? When medical staffing is insufficient, patients are prioritized based on the severity of their affliction. For example, in wartime, someone with a bullet wound in their leg would simply have their leg amputated quickly rather than spend extended time carefully digging out the bullet so they'd have more time to tend to the people with bullet wounds in their chest, or blown of limbs. In the case of this thread, this patient is too far gone to invest any time in. Just let it die.

    Can anyone in this thread argue without straw men or ad hominem? I see lots of fabricated arguments, slippery slopes and personal attacks, but no facts.

    Cori, what exactly is a "high normal" CO2 range? Ranges don't mean a damn thing because the "average" in this country is unhealthy. "Normal" range for blood glucose is as high as 99. That is a horrible number. Your BG should be more like 74-84. THAT is normal, but we're comparing it to a sickly average. Cholesterol? Studies show all-cause mortality is lowest in people with a TC of 200-240, yet if your TC is 220, you're flagged as high versus the sickly "average."

    I don't want to be average because average isn't healthy. What is your CO2? 24? 25? 26? That's average because over two thirds of America is hypothyroid, yet you'd never know since the official test for hypothyroidism is a TSH screening, which measures pituitary function and not thyroid function! Let me know when your CO2 is 29 or 30. That's a good number. Not many ZC'ers or LC'ers are going to pull that. Can you breathe out your nose comfortably without opening your mouth? Mouth-breathing is a great indicator of metabolic inefficiency. What is your body temperature immediately upon waking? Don't even get out of bed to walk to the bathroom and get your thermometer - it'll warm you up. Keep your thermometer on your nightstand and check before you rise. 97.6? 97.9? A LC'er with a body temperature out of the 97's is impressive!

    These little self-tests are better indicators of health than a blood test from a drug deal...err...doctor.
    Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 06-06-2013 at 09:07 PM.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Techie View Post
    Your body only needs 30-50g of glucose per day either from carbs or broken down from protein, and only the brain needs glucose to begin with.

    Your body will easily burn 150g of fat per day for the rest of your body that can use fatty acids and ketones for energy.
    You don't understand.

    Your body NEEDS a minimum of 50g of glucose a day to function. Without it, it dies. Your body doesn't need fat in any significant quantity.

    Who cares if your body can burn 150g of fat in a day? That's a lousy 1350 calories. That is the TDEE of a 110 lb sedentary girl. In that case, your body can burn through 338g of glucose, too. Your body needs calories to survive. There is a difference between "surviving" and "thriving." You can survive on a zero carb diet. You will not thrive like a person that gets enough fat and glucose through their diet. You can survive on gluconeogenesis to get your glucose. You will never be as strong, fast and healthy as you will be if you just ate a potato.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  7. #57
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    My reference to having "high normal" CO2 is exactly what it sounds like. The high end of the normal range.
    If you knew what the range was you wouldn't be guessing 24 and 25... that's low.

    The normal range is 23-29 mEq/L, and all of my tests have come back as 27 or 28.
    I'm not sure why you assume that a reading must be 29 or 30 to be good? 30 is over the normal range. Not much, but it is... why do you think that more CO2, is better... how about trying for 35mEq/L! Or 40! Yeah. Because you're displacing O2, and you need that too.

    My readings aren't low.
    But you can think they are if you want to.
    I don't feel any particular need to be superhuman...
    For someone on a medication that is supposed to put my CO2 in the dumps it looks pretty freaking fantastic. My doctor has been impressed... I'm the only patient he has that is on a zero processed foods diet though. So maybe the the HFLC doesn't really hurt. It's all good, REAL, food after all.

    BTW, that's testing once every two months for the past year... And I'm not in "perfect health".
    (Psst... I never expect to be. But I'm overcoming some serious shit.)
    I'm a 40 yr old, moderately overweight woman with two autoimmune diseases (thanks to years of gluten intolerance I had no clue was affecting me in that manner, no not SAD... the "healthy whole grains" trap), one I've had for 15 yrs, the other for almost 2.
    Remember, I also take a medication that is known to cause problems with CO2 and causes crazy potassium depletion... that is why I get blood tests so frequently.
    I asked my neurologist specifically about HFLC possibly causing problems with CO2 because of all of these forum scare tactics and he said very plainly "No."

    While I have slowly been losing weight on Primal that is not my main focus. My main focus is my brain health. Being HFLC has allowed me to go from 3000mg a day of said crappy drug to control my brain issues to only 500-1000 mg per day using my judgement on a day to day basis, MOST days only 500mg which is the minimum dosage. And I continue to work towards a day where I can hopefully be off it completely. That will not happen on a high carb diet. Such has a noticeable and serious, negative impact on my brain function. Not that I'm afraid of carby foods... I still eat them within reason. Some of them are delicious, and I think a healthy part of my diet.


    ...Yes, I breathe comfortably through my nose... who doesn't?
    Do people really sit around gaping like fish out of water unless they have just been running or some such? This is not my experience unless I have a terrible head cold and my sinus cavity is buggered up.
    Seriously. That is bizarre.
    The only people I've ever really herd referred to by the term "mouth breathers" had NOTHING to do with being low carb I assure you. It was an ever so uncouth term for people who were generally morbidly obese, low in-come, uneducated, SAD eating types you'd likely run into at Wal-mart with a cart full of chips, white bread, coke, and assorted crap. Or the permanently drug addled.

    And no, I don't shove a thermometer in my mouth every morning... that seems borderline neurotic to me if not for the purposes of fertility awareness. But my temperature is always within a .tic (plus or minus) or two of the standard 98.6 whenever I'm in the docs office, and has been for all the years I can remember. My standard is for morning appointments. Unless I'm in my GP's office for some sort of other illness on occasion where I have a fever.

    Also... I've had my cortisol tested.
    My current neurologist is a cool guy who kind of blends conventional and holistic-type medicine. He's young and not American. I think this is a good thing, though his accent is tough sometimes.
    He ordered a full work up on me because I've been living so long with chronic disease/stress from these issues.
    It was a normal reading for the time of day... I don't remember the details as it was just a one time test and I was satisfied with his explanation, and he seemed very happy with the results. He's not a pill pushing doctor... he does medications as necessary and also incorporates natural practices such as vitamins, herbs, diet changes... he sells zero products, he only makes recommendations of things that would be in a persons benefit to try that they can then go buy on their own.
    Maybe my cortisol isn't a problem due to the fact that I practice some deep breathing exercises and eastern type philosophy stuff to deal with my stress from this stuff. Maybe it's because I don't quite see my health problems as "stressful" the way other people might. *shrug*
    Either way, I don't think that the cortisol rises seen in some people on HFLC can be pinned strictly to diet. Perhaps it can be pinned more to their stress over "dieting" which as we see in these forums happens to people who eat in all manners... low fat, high fat, noPUFAs and everything in between.




    Also... I don't at all believe that "two thirds of America is hypothyroid".
    I smell hyperbole I just don't know where you bought it...
    That's like saying that because I have autoimmune disease due to wheat that 2/3 of the rest of America does too... and you don't believe that do you?
    I do believe that the rest of America is putting themselves at risk for getting problems like mine by chugging down refined GMO wheat products by the pound every day... but I don't believe that they are already sick.
    That is a lot of assuming.


    Using a bunch of fancy authoritative language trying to scare people about how LC is going to lower their CO2 and raise their cortisol and then saying that testing those things isn't effective when the tests show that everything is perfectly fine is absurd.

    Also, I'll humor you... according to your "self-tests" I'm better than fine.
    Mouth closed for breathing. Check!
    Temperature correct(in general). Check!
    (Hell, maybe I'll even see if I can find a thermometer around here... )
    Happy and has energy. Check!
    Awesome blood pressure. Check!
    Has less pain and symptoms from autoimmune disease than in well over a decade. Check!
    Brain issues helped by HFLC. Check!

    Any other "self-tests"?
    My hair stylist always comments on the thickness/fullness of my hair and uses thinning sheers despite the fact that I have fine straight type hair... the kind that won't hold a curl at all.
    She also always comments on how amazed at how much it grows between appointments. She makes this comment at every appointment without fail. She says she feels like she has to cut a lot more off of me to maintain my cut...

    Anything else?



    I'm not saying that people should never be advised to eat more carbs. Sometimes a persons situation calls for that. I have advised it myself in these forums.
    Other times a person will do just fine on LC forever, or until they choose to make changes for some other reason.

    What I'm saying is that the stuff that you guys bandy about like you think you are some sort of professional "supermen" out to save the world is just way over done.
    Lots of people have exactly ZERO negative side effects of living on a LC diet.
    Why keep beating away about how you think it's unhealthy for everyone when it's not.




    Choco, I love the "Eat real food" thing.
    It's one of the things that you have managed to stay consistent about thorough your self-experimental, new guru finding, meanderings that is really awesome.
    Why can't we have more of that and less... ridiculousness.
    Just because you like a thing on paper, and it works great for YOU, doesn't mean it applies equally to the rest of the world the way you want it to.

    Neurotic diet analysis is neurotic.

    Just eat real food.


    Also, why the personal attack on my doctor? Who you feel the need to mock him as a drug dealer...
    And basically me too as his patient?

    Without his "drugs" I would not be able to walk or talk... or function normally, or care for myself in really basic ways. Certainly not shop for healthy food or exercise. This is not some over prescribed statin I'm on.
    Without him I also would probably not be to the point where I am in minimizing my medication through diet. He is actually interested in getting me off the meds. He isn't pushing to make that happen tomorrow as he knows that it would be dangerous and I'd likely end up back in the hospital with another major brain event which would take months of recovery to get back to where I am again now... It could possibly even cause me to need a brain surgery, something I'd rather avoid.
    Not all doctors are "evil drug pushers".
    Try and get out of your narrow thinking a little once in a while.
    There are medications in this world saving lives and making peoples lives worth living.
    “You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.”
    ~Friedrich Nietzsche
    And that's why I'm here eating HFLC Primal/Paleo.


  8. #58
    dkJames's Avatar
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    I have been low-carbing for 6-7 months. Here are my personal individual observations:
    - I've been feeling warm all the time
    - I feel I had plenty of energy
    - I measured my temp at waking time once because my wife suspected she had hypothyroidism. I was at 37.2 C (guess it in F )
    - I managed to reprogram my hunger and eating schedules to one meal a day without any discomfort
    - I am a father of 2 toddlers which is quite demanding and I never run out of steam
    - I finally became serious about working out with my new-found energy

    lately, I upped my carbs (potatoes, rice and more fruits) because at one meal a day, I see no point in not enjoying starches and fruits. The result of upping the carbs ? None, I still feel as good but not better.

    I never had any thyroid issue in my life and low-carbing did not trigger any. My wife had been high-carbing all her life until we started primal and she used to have HT while high-carbing. Weird uh ? This morning, she was back from the hospital for checking her HT numbers: she is completely normal. Her problem is not HT but cortisol and I suspect histamine. She is too stressed and has poor sleep. We are working on it with rhodiola and meditation. Whether she is on SAD or primal diet does not seem to be a big factor in her cortisol issue. For the histamine, we eliminate the problematic foods during the 2 weeks before the end of her menstruation cycle.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    My reference to having "high normal" CO2 is exactly what it sounds like. The high end of the normal range.
    If you knew what the range was you wouldn't be guessing 24 and 25... that's low.

    The normal range is 23-29 mEq/L, and all of my tests have come back as 27 or 28.
    I'm not sure why you assume that a reading must be 29 or 30 to be good? 30 is over the normal range. Not much, but it is... why do you think that more CO2, is better... how about trying for 35mEq/L! Or 40! Yeah. Because you're displacing O2, and you need that too.

    My readings aren't low.
    But you can think they are if you want to.
    I don't feel any particular need to be superhuman...
    For someone on a medication that is supposed to put my CO2 in the dumps it looks pretty freaking fantastic. My doctor has been impressed... I'm the only patient he has that is on a zero processed foods diet though. So maybe the the HFLC doesn't really hurt. It's all good, REAL, food after all.

    BTW, that's testing once every two months for the past year... And I'm not in "perfect health".
    (Psst... I never expect to be. But I'm overcoming some serious shit.)
    I'm a 40 yr old, moderately overweight woman with two autoimmune diseases (thanks to years of gluten intolerance I had no clue was affecting me in that manner, no not SAD... the "healthy whole grains" trap), one I've had for 15 yrs, the other for almost 2.
    Remember, I also take a medication that is known to cause problems with CO2 and causes crazy potassium depletion... that is why I get blood tests so frequently.
    I asked my neurologist specifically about HFLC possibly causing problems with CO2 because of all of these forum scare tactics and he said very plainly "No."

    While I have slowly been losing weight on Primal that is not my main focus. My main focus is my brain health. Being HFLC has allowed me to go from 3000mg a day of said crappy drug to control my brain issues to only 500-1000 mg per day using my judgement on a day to day basis, MOST days only 500mg which is the minimum dosage. And I continue to work towards a day where I can hopefully be off it completely. That will not happen on a high carb diet. Such has a noticeable and serious, negative impact on my brain function. Not that I'm afraid of carby foods... I still eat them within reason. Some of them are delicious, and I think a healthy part of my diet.


    ...Yes, I breathe comfortably through my nose... who doesn't?
    Do people really sit around gaping like fish out of water unless they have just been running or some such? This is not my experience unless I have a terrible head cold and my sinus cavity is buggered up.
    Seriously. That is bizarre.
    The only people I've ever really herd referred to by the term "mouth breathers" had NOTHING to do with being low carb I assure you. It was an ever so uncouth term for people who were generally morbidly obese, low in-come, uneducated, SAD eating types you'd likely run into at Wal-mart with a cart full of chips, white bread, coke, and assorted crap. Or the permanently drug addled.

    And no, I don't shove a thermometer in my mouth every morning... that seems borderline neurotic to me if not for the purposes of fertility awareness. But my temperature is always within a .tic (plus or minus) or two of the standard 98.6 whenever I'm in the docs office, and has been for all the years I can remember. My standard is for morning appointments. Unless I'm in my GP's office for some sort of other illness on occasion where I have a fever.

    Also... I've had my cortisol tested.
    My current neurologist is a cool guy who kind of blends conventional and holistic-type medicine. He's young and not American. I think this is a good thing, though his accent is tough sometimes.
    He ordered a full work up on me because I've been living so long with chronic disease/stress from these issues.
    It was a normal reading for the time of day... I don't remember the details as it was just a one time test and I was satisfied with his explanation, and he seemed very happy with the results. He's not a pill pushing doctor... he does medications as necessary and also incorporates natural practices such as vitamins, herbs, diet changes... he sells zero products, he only makes recommendations of things that would be in a persons benefit to try that they can then go buy on their own.
    Maybe my cortisol isn't a problem due to the fact that I practice some deep breathing exercises and eastern type philosophy stuff to deal with my stress from this stuff. Maybe it's because I don't quite see my health problems as "stressful" the way other people might. *shrug*
    Either way, I don't think that the cortisol rises seen in some people on HFLC can be pinned strictly to diet. Perhaps it can be pinned more to their stress over "dieting" which as we see in these forums happens to people who eat in all manners... low fat, high fat, noPUFAs and everything in between.




    Also... I don't at all believe that "two thirds of America is hypothyroid".
    I smell hyperbole I just don't know where you bought it...
    That's like saying that because I have autoimmune disease due to wheat that 2/3 of the rest of America does too... and you don't believe that do you?
    I do believe that the rest of America is putting themselves at risk for getting problems like mine by chugging down refined GMO wheat products by the pound every day... but I don't believe that they are already sick.
    That is a lot of assuming.


    Using a bunch of fancy authoritative language trying to scare people about how LC is going to lower their CO2 and raise their cortisol and then saying that testing those things isn't effective when the tests show that everything is perfectly fine is absurd.

    Also, I'll humor you... according to your "self-tests" I'm better than fine.
    Mouth closed for breathing. Check!
    Temperature correct(in general). Check!
    (Hell, maybe I'll even see if I can find a thermometer around here... )
    Happy and has energy. Check!
    Awesome blood pressure. Check!
    Has less pain and symptoms from autoimmune disease than in well over a decade. Check!
    Brain issues helped by HFLC. Check!

    Any other "self-tests"?
    My hair stylist always comments on the thickness/fullness of my hair and uses thinning sheers despite the fact that I have fine straight type hair... the kind that won't hold a curl at all.
    She also always comments on how amazed at how much it grows between appointments. She makes this comment at every appointment without fail. She says she feels like she has to cut a lot more off of me to maintain my cut...

    Anything else?



    I'm not saying that people should never be advised to eat more carbs. Sometimes a persons situation calls for that. I have advised it myself in these forums.
    Other times a person will do just fine on LC forever, or until they choose to make changes for some other reason.

    What I'm saying is that the stuff that you guys bandy about like you think you are some sort of professional "supermen" out to save the world is just way over done.
    Lots of people have exactly ZERO negative side effects of living on a LC diet.
    Why keep beating away about how you think it's unhealthy for everyone when it's not.




    Choco, I love the "Eat real food" thing.
    It's one of the things that you have managed to stay consistent about thorough your self-experimental, new guru finding, meanderings that is really awesome.
    Why can't we have more of that and less... ridiculousness.
    Just because you like a thing on paper, and it works great for YOU, doesn't mean it applies equally to the rest of the world the way you want it to.

    Neurotic diet analysis is neurotic.

    Just eat real food.


    Also, why the personal attack on my doctor? Who you feel the need to mock him as a drug dealer...
    And basically me too as his patient?

    Without his "drugs" I would not be able to walk or talk... or function normally, or care for myself in really basic ways. Certainly not shop for healthy food or exercise. This is not some over prescribed statin I'm on.
    Without him I also would probably not be to the point where I am in minimizing my medication through diet. He is actually interested in getting me off the meds. He isn't pushing to make that happen tomorrow as he knows that it would be dangerous and I'd likely end up back in the hospital with another major brain event which would take months of recovery to get back to where I am again now... It could possibly even cause me to need a brain surgery, something I'd rather avoid.
    Not all doctors are "evil drug pushers".
    Try and get out of your narrow thinking a little once in a while.
    There are medications in this world saving lives and making peoples lives worth living.
    disgusted-mother-of-god.png

  10. #60
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cori93437 View Post
    My reference to having "high normal" CO2 is exactly what it sounds like. The high end of the normal range.
    If you knew what the range was you wouldn't be guessing 24 and 25... that's low.
    OK, this is a massive post that I'll have to dig into over lunch today, but I do know exactly what the range is. This is why I quoted you 24-25. That is considered "normal" and typical of a low carber or American. That is only "normal" because a "normal person" is hypothyroid. 28 is a good number for "normal." High-normal would be around 30. 30 is a beautiful number...I doubt I'm there. I'm due for a blood test soon. My last test over a year ago pegged me at 26, which I was unhappy with. I averaged around 80g of carbs/150g of fat a day back then.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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