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Thread: Rippetoe's New Article - Must Read If You Have Strength Questions page 17

  1. #161
    iniQuity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    No, the vertical jump is often used as the example of a genetic athletic skill that is relatively strength-independent. You can improve your vertical, but not by much, no matter how strong you get.

    fine

    You also don't think Strongman competitors train with a barbell

    2 shay



    Because he's stronger. That's my point.

    Ok, but on the inverse the gymnast would crush the powerlifter in probably all upper body movements, especially those where leverage is a factor, agreed? so then how are we defining "stronger?" Another one, do you think, given equal weights, a gymnast that can do full ROM handstand push ups would be able to put up more than a lifter in a military press? I can't say with certainty, but I do think that's a better example than a squat comp

    The mechanics of the front squat impair the amount of weight that can be lifted. Why would you not want to involve more of the posterior chain and lift more weight? I bet getting stronger by doing back squats will improve your front squats at a higher rate than just front-squatting.
    You're likely right, but I don't have anybody to coach me and I gather that the front squat is a stricter lift form wise - more self correcting so to speak. It's also easier to dump the bar should I fail. I know that you can back squat anything you can front squat (due to what you said) so I don't feel as though I'm missing out so to speak, just progressing in a different way. I also deadlit which as I understand it, involves the posterior chain quite nicely. I don't want to fuck around and switch things around too much, so for now I'll stay with the front squat. FWIW, I do snatch grip deadlifts, so I start from pretty low and it feels like a squat at the beginning of the movement. I'm definitely open to suggestions though, maybe I'll go back squats and regular deadlifts for a few weeks in the future.
    I used to seriously post here, now I prefer to troll.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    Getting stronger with barbells makes you stronger with everything else - I.e. "general strength". It doesn't mean that the person who is the strongest with barbells will be the strongest with everything else, but it does mean they will indeed be strong with everything else. This is exactly why you know Ed Coan is stronger in every strength test than you and I.
    Hmmm, I still remember the 280 pound power lifter that exclaimed "I am not big enough, I feel so weak" some twenty years ago when we tried to transform him into a competition Judoka! Very easy with judo, just grab the opponent, lift him up and throw him down on his back and you win, less than 10 seconds to finish, very good idea with a powerlifting background, a professor friend tried to convince me! And we gave it a try for more than three f**king months, two very strong and fairly motivated power lifters, one 280 and the other 255 pound. Unfortunately they did not have the right kind of strength though, very little relevant carryover to judo, and we finally gave it up…

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Hmmm, I still remember the 280 pound power lifter that exclaimed "I am not big enough, I feel so weak" some twenty years ago when we tried to transform him into a competition Judoka! Very easy with judo, just grab the opponent, lift him up and throw him down on his back and you win, less than 10 seconds to finish, very good idea with a powerlifting background, a professor friend tried to convince me! And we gave it a try for more than three f**king months, two very strong and fairly motivated power lifters, one 280 and the other 255 pound. Unfortunately they did not have the right kind of strength though, very little relevant carryover to judo, and we finally gave it up…
    So practitioners of Judo were better at Judo than people new to Judo? Martial arts involve many other things besides strength. That said, were the powerlifters strength worse than the other 280lb persons you've tested?

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    My position is that what is usually considered as "strength" is complex and it's A LOT of skill and technique involved even in the most basic lifts, and yes you get a carryover from the physical adaptions from all kind of strength training that build relevant muscle fibers, from barbells, dumbbells, sandbags, pullups, machines etc.

  5. #165
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    Gorbag: Who would win a judo match between two extreme novices, a strong person, or a weak one? I've been thrown by skilled judoka who are by any measure weaker than myself.

    IniQuity: The press is no longer a contested lift, but many powerlifters train that lift as well as the bench press. I don't think your gymnasts (while they are impressive specimens) can compare in raw upper body strength. Do you think it's easier to teach a strong person to do a planche or a weak person to press their bodyweight overhead? That's the relevant question here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    My position is that what is usually considered as "strength" is complex and it's A LOT of skill and technique involved even in the most basic lifts, and yes you get a carryover from the physical adaptions from all kind of strength training that build relevant muscle fibers, from barbells, dumbbells, sandbags, pullups, machines etc.
    OK, so we're in agreement that strength is a general adaptation. The remaining question is what produces the most strength and with the largest amount of carryover?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    My position is that what is usually considered as "strength" is complex and it's A LOT of skill and technique involved even in the most basic lifts,
    Who argued that? The skill behind the lifts isn't the question. The results of progressively loading them once you've learned to perform them are the question.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    and yes you get a carryover from the physical adaptions from all kind of strength training that build relevant muscle fibers, from barbells, dumbbells, sandbags, pullups, machines etc.
    That's precisely what you began arguing against in this thread. The relevance of strength.

    You can pound a nail into a piece of wood with a brick or a rock. It's just not the most effective tool for the job. A hammer is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    OK, so we're in agreement that strength is a general adaptation.
    And what the heck does a "general adaption" mean? Define it - if I have trained nothing else than my lower body and not my upper body at all and have huge muscular legs and pretty much an untrained upper body, do I then have a "general strength adaption"?

    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    The remaining question is what produces the most strength and with the largest amount of carryover?
    Whatever movement(s) that best builds relevant musclefibers for whatever movements that you want a strength carryover for! Got it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    And what the heck does a "general adaption" mean? Define it - if I have trained nothing else than my lower body and not my upper body at all and have huge muscular legs and pretty much an untrained upper body, do I then have a "general strength adaption"?
    Where are these people with huge, Ronnie Coleman legs and tiny arms?


    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Whatever movement(s) that best builds relevant musclefibers for whatever movements that you want a strength carryover for! Got it?
    And what movements are those for a judoka? Probably the ones that make him most generally strong, right? Like a progressively loadable full-ROM compound movement, like the low-bar back squat, deadlift, and press?

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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Where are these people with huge, Ronnie Coleman legs and tiny arms?
    European ice skaters from the eigthies used to be built like that, some could do heavy squats with 350 pounds for many reps and benchpress only 150 pound. I suppose they were "general strong" then, or maybe half strong, LOL

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    And what movements are those for a judoka? Probably the ones that make him most generally strong, right? Like a progressively loadable full-ROM compound movement, like the low-bar back squat, deadlift, and press?
    Depends on the individual, some need to have strong legs more than anything else because the squat down in seio-nage, others makes other priorities, so it depends on lots of things...

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