Results 1 to 8 of 8

Thread: Leptin refeed? page

  1. #1
    SJW2's Avatar
    SJW2 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    88

    Leptin refeed?

    Shop Now
    Hi all,

    I see there is a leptin thread down below, but I was specifically just curious if I should try a leptin refeed.

    Brief context:
    - First round of primal about 2 1/2 years ago. Went from 177lbs to 162lbs (5'11 male) which was about 22+% BF to about 16ish% BF. Kinda stalled out there. Became a little less disciplined (though no much) and got back up almost to the same weight.
    - Round 2 of primal started in August. Am back down to about 164 (possibly a smidge of muscle gained since round 1. Lost it doing primal and running 5-6x/week. Pretty low carb. Usually 50-70g/day.
    - Introduced leangains-ish approach. I.e., daily intermittent fasting 16hrs. Eat more on lifting days, less on rest days. Usually about 1800-1900 calories on lift days, 1400-1600 calories on rest days.

    Anyway, I have been pretty stalled for awhile. Though leptin refeeds seem to be recommended at a lower BF%, I wonder if I should try it given I have been fairly stalled and my calories are pretty low for my size IMO. PS: I'm at about 16-17% BF right now.

    Thanks!

  2. #2
    boomingno's Avatar
    boomingno is offline Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    83
    When Martin recommends eating 'more calories on lifting days', I'm pretty sure he means that you should actually have a calorie surplus on those days, and I don't see 1900 calories getting there for a male. So I would just up the calories on lifting days and keep at it.

  3. #3
    SJW2's Avatar
    SJW2 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    88
    I get what you're saying, but if you use the lean gains calculator and want to "cut", it says eat 10% below maintenance even on lifting days.

  4. #4
    otzi's Avatar
    otzi Guest
    The best way to get leptin sensitivity is through insulin sensitivity. The two go hand-in-hand. To ensure you are insulin sensitive, eat some starchy carbs (potatoes/rice) every day. 1 potato is only 35g carbs, so fits nicely in a lower carb diet. Try eating potato or rice on their own (no fat or other foods) a couple times a week as a noon meal.

    You could also get a home blood glucose tester and track your fasting levels for a while to see where you are at. To date, there are no tests to check leptin sensitivity!

    Other things to restore leptin sensitivity: Get good sleep in a dark room, exercise, remove stress from your life, no snacking (sound familiar?)

    Eating a big protein breakfast is not going to restore leptin sensitivity on it's own.

  5. #5
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    You can't always be in a deficit or your deficit becomes your new maintenance. You need to learn how to calorie cycle. The -10%/-30% protocol isn't meant to be maintained. It's for brief 6 week periods or so to cut before competitions.

    When you're 100 lbs overweight, you can maintain constant deficits because your body has plenty of fat and doesn't fear starvation. When you're reasonably lean, you have to be careful. Your calories as a grown man of 5'11" should probably be more like 2700/1900. You must feel like crap. I'd also recommend cutting out fat and replacing with carbs to provide more energy. 50-70g/day is no way to live, even for most small women.

    If I were you, I'd slowly up my calories and start taking thyroid and adrenals to recover your metabolic rate. I'd take these - one of each upon taking and one of each before bed.

    Amazon.com: Natural Sources - Raw Adrenal, 60 capsules: Health & Personal Care

    Amazon.com: Nature'S Source Raw Thyroid (1x60 CAP): Kitchen & Dining

    NOTE: You can get these much cheaper from places other than Amazon. They were just convenience links.

    Embrace sugar - not just starch. Cut fats significantly, eat fruit with every meal, eat starch post-workout. That's what I'd do anyway.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  6. #6
    SJW2's Avatar
    SJW2 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    You can't always be in a deficit or your deficit becomes your new maintenance. You need to learn how to calorie cycle. The -10%/-30% protocol isn't meant to be maintained. It's for brief 6 week periods or so to cut before competitions.

    When you're 100 lbs overweight, you can maintain constant deficits because your body has plenty of fat and doesn't fear starvation. When you're reasonably lean, you have to be careful. Your calories as a grown man of 5'11" should probably be more like 2700/1900. You must feel like crap. I'd also recommend cutting out fat and replacing with carbs to provide more energy. 50-70g/day is no way to live, even for most small women.

    If I were you, I'd slowly up my calories and start taking thyroid and adrenals to recover your metabolic rate. I'd take these - one of each upon taking and one of each before bed.

    Amazon.com: Natural Sources - Raw Adrenal, 60 capsules: Health & Personal Care

    Amazon.com: Nature'S Source Raw Thyroid (1x60 CAP): Kitchen & Dining

    NOTE: You can get these much cheaper from places other than Amazon. They were just convenience links.

    Embrace sugar - not just starch. Cut fats significantly, eat fruit with every meal, eat starch post-workout. That's what I'd do anyway.
    Hey Choco - thanks for the response.

    I hear you and respect your opinion. I've seen you post before - I have been silent for awhile. But I'm hesitant with what you said because I had so much success going pretty darn low carb. I'm a little nervous because of how easily I put on weight after I started slacking - and not even by that much. (Slacking in terms of carbs mostly, maybe a smidge calories). I was also once about 205 lbs. Lost 30 purely by running (or at least that's mostly what my focus was - might have inadvertently ate a little better).

    I generally don't feel like crap, but maybe I've gotten too used to it? I wouldn't be totally surprised if I have just habituated to a slight level of crapiness.

    I'm open to your protocol - though I don't think I'll ever embrace sugar. I can get down with "healthy carbs", but I am pretty convinced sugar and wheat are the main problems for people.

    So couple questions:
    1. What do you think is the engine for weight loss? Purely calories? Or carbs? And if it's calories, how will eating more help me lose more? I get that it has something to do with how my hormones and metabolism adjust to lower caloric restriction rendering it somewhat useless.
    2. What kind of workout regiment do you recommend? As I said, I've been doing a leangains type deal. I do squats, deadlifts, benchpress, and chin ups. 3x a week. Mix in some cardio (basketball and running - either after lifting or on off days).

    I'm just various curious why I have plateaued for so long. I would like to get to approx 10% BF badly. Frustrated.

  7. #7
    ChocoTaco369's Avatar
    ChocoTaco369 is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Narberth, PA
    Posts
    5,606
    Quote Originally Posted by SJW2 View Post
    I'm open to your protocol - though I don't think I'll ever embrace sugar. I can get down with "healthy carbs", but I am pretty convinced sugar and wheat are the main problems for people.
    First off, congrats on the weight loss. That's a nice chunk of body weight knocked off. You must feel like a new person.

    I disagree regarding sugar entirely. The problem I see with sugar is that it adds a lot of calories and often displaces nutritious food. Sugar itself is not toxic, but it isn't nutritious, either. There is nothing wrong with some sugar in your diet if your calories are under control and you're eating nutritious foods, but for the average American consuming a 30% caloric surplus daily and getting 50% of those calories from empty grains and sugars it's a huge issue.

    I don't add sugar to my food with any significance (outside of, say, some honey in buffalo sauce or BBS sauce), but it's a little crazy when I see people complaining about a product where sugar is the very last ingredient. It's not harmful in and of itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by SJW2 View Post
    So couple questions:
    1. What do you think is the engine for weight loss? Purely calories? Or carbs? And if it's calories, how will eating more help me lose more? I get that it has something to do with how my hormones and metabolism adjust to lower caloric restriction rendering it somewhat useless.
    Weight loss is purely caloric. The carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity is full of confounding factors. The reason why low carbohydrate diets seem to be more successful than low fat diets is simply the food choices surrounding them. When people go on low fat diets, they tend to eat lots of pasta, oatmeal, sandwiches, cereals, low fat/fat free dairy and stir fries. That isn't filling food. Grains are the base of their food consumption - they aren't eating chicken breast, eye round and potatoes. Grains are not filling foods. You're starving again in 3 hours. Low carbohydrate diets, on the other hand, have people consuming lots of meat and vegetables. They accidentally make you 80% paleo, if not more. People on low carbohydrate diets naturally consume less than people on low fat diets because their whole food consumption tends to be higher, meaning they are consuming more filling, nutritious foods. That's it. A person that low fat diets with lean meats, roots, tubers and vegetables is probably going to be just as successful if not more successful because food volume is increased when fat is shifted to carbs and protein, but that isn't the typical low fat protocol.

    Quote Originally Posted by SJW2 View Post
    2. What kind of workout regiment do you recommend? As I said, I've been doing a leangains type deal. I do squats, deadlifts, benchpress, and chin ups. 3x a week. Mix in some cardio (basketball and running - either after lifting or on off days).
    That's pretty much it. 3 days a week, make each one of the Big Three your starting point and go for about an hour total.

    Quote Originally Posted by SJW2 View Post
    I'm just various curious why I have plateaued for so long. I would like to get to approx 10% BF badly. Frustrated.
    Well, you probably won't get to 10% BF. Not naturally. It just isn't in most of our genes. To do that, you'll probably have to count calories, calorie cycle or add lots of cardio. If you want it you can do it, but you're going to have to make lifestyle changes. You're going to have to cut fats significantly. You may have to add in carbs for performance, but you have to add in less carbs than the fats you subtract so you receive an overall caloric deficit. You'll also want to add in 2-3 days of fasted cardio in if you can. The best time to do cardio is immediately upon waking, but if you eat lunch at noon and don't touch food and get home from work at, say, 5-6pm, you'll be burning mostly fat at that point.

    I do recommend the thyroid and adrenal supplements, though. My freaking body temperature is so high now...I'm walking around half naked in rooms where people are freezing.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

  8. #8
    SJW2's Avatar
    SJW2 is offline Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    New York
    Posts
    88
    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
    First off, congrats on the weight loss. That's a nice chunk of body weight knocked off. You must feel like a new person.

    I disagree regarding sugar entirely. The problem I see with sugar is that it adds a lot of calories and often displaces nutritious food. Sugar itself is not toxic, but it isn't nutritious, either. There is nothing wrong with some sugar in your diet if your calories are under control and you're eating nutritious foods, but for the average American consuming a 30% caloric surplus daily and getting 50% of those calories from empty grains and sugars it's a huge issue.

    I don't add sugar to my food with any significance (outside of, say, some honey in buffalo sauce or BBS sauce), but it's a little crazy when I see people complaining about a product where sugar is the very last ingredient. It's not harmful in and of itself.


    Weight loss is purely caloric. The carbohydrate hypothesis of obesity is full of confounding factors. The reason why low carbohydrate diets seem to be more successful than low fat diets is simply the food choices surrounding them. When people go on low fat diets, they tend to eat lots of pasta, oatmeal, sandwiches, cereals, low fat/fat free dairy and stir fries. That isn't filling food. Grains are the base of their food consumption - they aren't eating chicken breast, eye round and potatoes. Grains are not filling foods. You're starving again in 3 hours. Low carbohydrate diets, on the other hand, have people consuming lots of meat and vegetables. They accidentally make you 80% paleo, if not more. People on low carbohydrate diets naturally consume less than people on low fat diets because their whole food consumption tends to be higher, meaning they are consuming more filling, nutritious foods. That's it. A person that low fat diets with lean meats, roots, tubers and vegetables is probably going to be just as successful if not more successful because food volume is increased when fat is shifted to carbs and protein, but that isn't the typical low fat protocol.


    That's pretty much it. 3 days a week, make each one of the Big Three your starting point and go for about an hour total.


    Well, you probably won't get to 10% BF. Not naturally. It just isn't in most of our genes. To do that, you'll probably have to count calories, calorie cycle or add lots of cardio. If you want it you can do it, but you're going to have to make lifestyle changes. You're going to have to cut fats significantly. You may have to add in carbs for performance, but you have to add in less carbs than the fats you subtract so you receive an overall caloric deficit. You'll also want to add in 2-3 days of fasted cardio in if you can. The best time to do cardio is immediately upon waking, but if you eat lunch at noon and don't touch food and get home from work at, say, 5-6pm, you'll be burning mostly fat at that point.

    I do recommend the thyroid and adrenal supplements, though. My freaking body temperature is so high now...I'm walking around half naked in rooms where people are freezing.
    Slight delayed response on my part. Wanted to address it fully. Sorry it's kind of a lot. Your response is most appreciated!!!

    First off, yeah, the weight loss so far has been nice. It's been a long time since I was 205. That was about 9 years ago. Got down to about 170, creeped back up to about 182. Then went on a backpacking trip - lost 5 lbs, then went straight into primal to get back down to 162. I was about 155 in high school. Blew up in college due to horrible diet (was vegetarian for a bit with no concept of nutrition) and took anti depressants at one point - they tend to lead to a lot of weight gain.

    I hear you on the sugar argument. But I'm pretty convinced that fructose in any significant quantity has a cumulatively bad effect on metabolism. Obviously I've been influenced by Lustig et al.

    As far as weight loss being purely caloric - I don't know. I was drawn to the insulin hypothesis as many low-carber/primal type people have been. I know that has been called into heavy question these days. I have a hard time believing the sort of caloric-machine model of human beings. I believe metabolism has to be influenced by the hormonal environment which must be influenced in part by the type of foods we eat. That said, calories certainly matter at some level.

    As for the lifting regiment, can you elaborate a little. I do make one of the big three the sole focus each time. It doesn't take an hour though. Do a few minutes of cardio to warm up, a few light warm up sets, and then 3 sets reverse-pyramid style doesn't took long.

    As for getting to 10% BF - I think I can do it somehow I'm sure. I have a pretty strong desire. I mean, I'm not totally obsessed. I'd be happy with 12, but I at least want to get to 12. I'm willing to work hard to get there. Whether that is physical activity, calorie counting, whatever.

    I can't quite follow your fasted cardio recommendations since I already get up at 5:30AM for work.

    With all of this said, my goals are to get somewhat stronger as I lose body fat down to 10-12%. Once there, more focus on strength building. How would you approach that if you were me? I'm willing to calorie/carb cycle, intermittently fast, strength train, do cardio, etc. If you can, include meal timing. I work from 7-3 daily. Usually like to work out when I get home so I can enjoy my evening, but I can delay for meal timing purposes. should I eat 2 meals after workout or just have my biggest meal afterwards? Should I do cardio after lift and have a full rest day or do cardio on days I don't lift?

    I'm sort of thinking of something like this (I'm going to get fairly specific):
    Monday: Bfast - 4 eggs with guacomole and 4 strips of bacon (roughly 600 calories)
    Lunch - leftovers from Sunday
    Dinner - Chicken breast with plantains and rice
    Workout - Deadlift
    Tuesday: Bfast - same
    Lunch - leftovers
    Dinner - Chicken thighs with artichoke hearts
    Cardio - run 3 miles
    Wednesday: 16 hr IF
    Late bfast - usual
    Lunch - leftovers
    Dinner - Ground beef with onions, mushrooms, peppers, and sweet potatoes (and spinach)
    Workout - benchpress
    Thursday: Bfast - usual
    Lunch - leftovers
    Dinner - Chicken thighs with broccoli and cauliflower
    Cardio - run 3 miles
    Friday: 16 hr IF
    Late bfast - usual
    Lunch - leftovers
    Dinner - Pork loin with sweet potatoes/parsnips/carrots
    Workout - squat
    Saturday: 16 hr IF
    Fasted cardio: run 3 miles if I feel like it
    Bfast - usual
    Lunch/Dinner - leftovers
    Sunday: 24 hr fast
    Dinner: Fish and brussel sprouts

    So Saturday and Sunday are sort of rest/whatever days. I'll play those days sort of by ear. I'll do IF on workout days carrying over from rest days. Rest days I won't fast in the morning because I find I'm pretty hungry earlier on after a workout day and I don't want to stress my body as much. Rest days will be lower calorie - maybe 1600-1800, higher fat, low carb. Workout days will be lower fat, higher carb - will IF to start day to bump up hormones for intenser workout and because I'll be stuffing myself later. I also may throw in post workout snacks of bananas and/or other fruits.

    Hope this isn't too much

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •