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Thread: Anarchy and why Statism is the worst thing to ever happen to us page 14

  1. #131
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    It should be voluntary. If a person decides to follow someone else, then it is their choice. If they choose to create a "government inc", a business which acts a government, but has other "government inc" competition, it is still better than a forced state controlling everything. A hierarchy does not need to exist. Free economy has been shown to be substantially more beneficial.

    ie; anarcho capitalism
    Beneficial to whom?

    This anarchy stuff is fantasy. Where would human kind be if we never got past tribal living? We'd still be living tribally. I guess that sounds sweet to all you primal-eating folk, but you don't realize the implications.

    • If you live in a tribe in which you eat human brains, that is what you will do.
    • If you live in a tribe that has a bitter rival nearby, you will physically fight them your entire life. No, you don't get to pay soldiers to fight for you.
    • If there is a big tiger hiding in the bushes, you will be his prey when you walk by. If you manage to escape with just one arm missing, you could easily die from infection or bleeding out.


    The fact is that primal living is tough. It has its aspects of freedom that are nice of course. Society and government were built to prevent anarchy and hopefully protect these freedoms.

    If we stayed in tribal living, we would be totally submitted to nature until nature eventually does its bidding with the human race. That means an asteroid, an ice age, a volcanic explosion, and eventually the sun will make life impossible on the Earth's surface in 500 million to 1 billion years. That's the end game for tribes.

    With technology, our society has hope for expansion into other planetary systems. That is the ultimate goal of humankind right now, I believe. I want that. I also think, while our government and society produces controls on us that are annoying, they are no different than controls that nature would have put on us anyways. In fact, you could say they're less by definition when you compare life expectancy among tribes vs our modern society. This means only a small fraction of the tribal population would ever even survive long enough to really experience this "freedom" you speak of.

    Pining for the "freedom" of anarchy is pure fantasy born out of thinking: thinking that one's mind is totally independent from one's body.
    • If one realizes one's mind is dependent upon one's body, one realizes even without any outside government, one is a slave to the survival needs one's body.
    • If one realizes that other people will collaborate, conspire, and seek to gain power NO MATTER what you say or do or outlaw or eliminate, one realizes that government is inevitable, even in an "anarchy" scenario. Warlords rise up during anarchy, just like you see in the ancient history of humankind.


    Let's get past this notion of 100% freedom because it's just not possible, and it's never existed before, ever, for any species of life. It's a romantic thought to throw next to soulmates, heavenly gods, karma, fairies, and pixie dust.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 04-15-2013 at 01:41 PM.

  2. #132
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
    wiltondeportes Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    It should be voluntary. If a person decides to follow someone else, then it is their choice. If they choose to create a "government inc", a business which acts a government, but has other "government inc" competition, it is still better than a forced state controlling everything. A hierarchy does not need to exist. Free economy has been shown to be substantially more beneficial.

    ie; anarcho capitalism
    I won't agree or disagree with you here. You're stepping into government ideas on moral grounds. Government is not about what SHOULD happen. It's about what COULD happen. I do not forsee a situation in which there are multiple 'corporations' fighting for you to join their own, personal government. It's extremely inefficient, and people would never agree to it.

    Alexander the Great is my favorite man in history for multiple reasons. Alexander was able to love like no other, and his anger was like no other if you were to cross him. Many people consider him a tyrant for his actions, but that perspective was mostly of those who revolted and/or betrayed him.
    • He did not employ slaves in the way that Persians did. He wanted to spread Greek ideals of democracy.
    • He united a bunch of Greek city-states that fought bloody wars before we was alive, and after he died. While alive, these city-states stopped fighting each other and came together for a common cause.


    When you look at what Alexander did in opposition to the Persians, who by contrast lived as complete slaves to their physical senses (call it hedonism, call it tribalish living), you see a physical component to the very two sides we are arguing on in this chat room. The side with modesty, with structure, with organization, with desire to achieve; that is the side that won. (The Greeks led by Alexander the Great if you don't know your history).

    As I said earlier, humans organizing for their own collective good is an inevitable occurence. It's human nature. So if you want to become a total sheep, a person of total powerlessness and total ignorance, go ahead and live like a sheep. If no warlord ever beats down your door (via physical or metaphorical economic/political means), you just got lucky. You didn't learn anything or find a superior way to live.

  3. #133
    Gladmorning's Avatar
    Gladmorning is offline Senior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Beneficial to whom?

    This anarchy stuff is fantasy. Where would human kind be if we never got past tribal living? We'd still be living tribally. I guess that sounds sweet to all you primal-eating folk, but you don't realize the implications.

    • If you live in a tribe in which you eat human brains, that is what you will do.
    • If you live in a tribe that has a bitter rival nearby, you will physically fight them your entire life. No, you don't get to pay soldiers to fight for you.
    • If there is a big tiger hiding in the bushes, you will be his prey when you walk by. If you manage to escape with just one arm missing, you could easily die from infection or bleeding out.


    The fact is that primal living is tough. It has its aspects of freedom that are nice of course. Society and government were built to prevent anarchy and hopefully protect these freedoms.

    If we stayed in tribal living, we would be totally submitted to nature until nature eventually does its bidding with the human race. That means an asteroid, an ice age, a volcanic explosion, and eventually the sun will make life impossible on the Earth's surface in 500 million to 1 billion years. That's the end game for tribes.

    With technology, our society has hope for expansion into other planetary systems. That is the ultimate goal of humankind right now, I believe. I want that. I also think, while our government and society produces controls on us that are annoying, they are no different than controls that nature would have put on us anyways. In fact, you could say they're less by definition when you compare life expectancy among tribes vs our modern society. This means only a small fraction of the tribal population would ever even survive long enough to really experience this "freedom" you speak of.

    Pining for the "freedom" of anarchy is pure fantasy born out of thinking: thinking that one's mind is totally independent from one's body.
    • If one realizes one's mind is dependent upon one's body, one realizes even without any outside government, one is a slave to the survival needs one's body.
    • If one realizes that other people will collaborate, conspire, and seek to gain power NO MATTER what you say or do or outlaw or eliminate, one realizes that government is inevitable, even in an "anarchy" scenario. Warlords rise up during anarchy, just like you see in the ancient history of humankind.


    Let's get past this notion of 100% freedom because it's just not possible, and it's never existed before, ever, for any species of life. It's a romantic thought to throw next to soulmates, heavenly gods, karma, fairies, and pixie dust.
    Sounds like you are terrified of living without government aid. What is so wrong with community living? You call it tribal, I call it community. In this area, or community, no one is going to be running around with butt flaps and spears, and there are no tigers here. What is wrong with living to live? Ie, gathering/cultivating/raising food. Being strong to protect one's family, and making sure there is adequate shelter? Why must there be a "system" to provide these things? Freedom is NOT a fantasy. You have been conditioned to believe there is no life outside a "system." I would be perfectly happy living in my own little community with neighboring communities in the area. Fights and skirmishes are inevitable, but I can promise, in a world like that, they wouldn't be nuclear.

    I dunno, man, you seem brain washed to me. Brain washed into thinking that being a CEO is more fulfilling in life than providing shelter, food and protection for your family and friends. Only when we had huge developing cities were there suddenly "classes" of people, causing class warfare.

    Hell, maybe I'm the brain washed one. Brain washed to think that subsistence living isn't all that bad.........
    The process is simple: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

  4. #134
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladmorning View Post
    Sounds like you are terrified of living without government aid. What is so wrong with community living? You call it tribal, I call it community. In this area, or community, no one is going to be running around with butt flaps and spears, and there are no tigers here. What is wrong with living to live? Ie, gathering/cultivating/raising food. Being strong to protect one's family, and making sure there is adequate shelter? Why must there be a "system" to provide these things? Freedom is NOT a fantasy. You have been conditioned to believe there is no life outside a "system." I would be perfectly happy living in my own little community with neighboring communities in the area. Fights and skirmishes are inevitable, but I can promise, in a world like that, they wouldn't be nuclear.

    I dunno, man, you seem brain washed to me. Brain washed into thinking that being a CEO is more fulfilling in life than providing shelter, food and protection for your family and friends. Only when we had huge developing cities were there suddenly "classes" of people, causing class warfare.

    Hell, maybe I'm the brain washed one. Brain washed to think that subsistence living isn't all that bad.........
    I'm not terrified of living without government. I've BEEN where you are, intellectually. I've thought those same thoughts. But now, I've gotten to the point where I don't see being a CEO as better or worse than hunting and gathering. Humans have interspecies competition. This can take place in war, economics, and politics. It's not for me to decide morally which playground is the most "just" playground to fight in. It's for me to prepare myself for all arenas and to fight off the bad guys in any scenario.

    The extra feather in my hat about a society that has CEOs has to do with humankind's eventual future. Space travel is a necessity or everyone will die, and there will never be a man, woman, or child ever again. That's what I value, so you could imply that my desire for society is based upon this moral/ethic/goal/value.

    The truth is that my desire for human expansion (to space) comes as a cherry on top to what I already know. We have more freedoms today than we did as hunter gatherers. If our government did not impose laws on us, nature would have. That's why I think we live in a great time in human history, and I think we should continue to value society.

    I'm open to discussing ways of changing society's structure (maybe to something more sustainable), but that's a different discussion.

  5. #135
    Gladmorning's Avatar
    Gladmorning is offline Senior Member
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    Wait, wait, wait.... you're telling me, that you believe that if we don't go into space living, we're all going to DIE? Really? No, sir, you have not been where I am. We are on two very different planets already.
    The process is simple: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

  6. #136
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladmorning View Post
    Wait, wait, wait.... you're telling me, that you believe that if we don't go into space living, we're all going to DIE? Really? No, sir, you have not been where I am. We are on two very different planets already.
    How are you to know if I can relate to you or not?

  7. #137
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    Because, man, just because I said something and you "used to be where I am," doesn't mean you can relate to me. This go into space or die business is just crazy.
    The process is simple: Free your mind, and your ass will follow.

  8. #138
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
    wiltondeportes Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Gladmorning View Post
    Because, man, just because I said something and you "used to be where I am," doesn't mean you can relate to me. This go into space or die business is just crazy.
    I never said that's what I believed when I was in your shoes. And call it crazy, but science supports it.

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