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Thread: Primal Paleface seeks safe tanning tips page 3

  1. #21
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    I thought the rays from the sun that tanned you were also the rays from the sun that triggered your skin to produce vitamin D? I think it was in Protein Power Life Plan that the Eades discuss the different sun rays and what they do, but I wasn't totally clear on it.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blorton View Post
    Thanks Kat! How are you actually testing for needed D levels?
    two ways: LabCorp via my doc or ZRT's home test (via vitamindcouncil.org, GrassrootsHealh's D*Action study or directly through ZRT.

    I always have my doc do it via LabCorp and I joined the D Action Study last August. I encourage everyone here to join Grassroots Heath's study.

    Here's a ton of D information I wrote....much more thorough info and cites are available at vitamindcouncil.org
    http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AV...A0d3BjMw&hl=en

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH2Ogirl View Post
    We've been getting some decent sun here in the ATL too.
    So true. We can start getting sufficient conc of UVB rays about midmay. Remember that heat, brightness, tanning and burning aren't alone, good indicators of UVB intensity nor D production.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sungrazer View Post
    Yiekes - I am at 59 degrees north, and grew up at 69 degrees north! I have just recently begun to take supplements (1000 - 1500 mg krill oil, the box recommends 500 - 1000 mg a day), but as a kid I ate a lot of fish, cod, coalfish etc. I also loved liver paste. I've set up an appointment for a health check and getting my blood draw on june 7th, maybe I should check my 25(OH)D levels as well.
    Yes, but in the meantime, start taking more - it's just not worth the huge risks of being deficient. Dont' take any supplements 48h before testing. Krill oil doesn't contain D. Liver paste supplies A, not D....even normal levels of A can highlight D deficiency.

    Quote Originally Posted by kuno1chi View Post
    I haven't used sunscreen, OR gotten a sunburn, since I started using CO as a moisturizer, and I'm out a LOT. I can't remember who told me this, but it was somebody here...that CO has about an SPF of 4 when applied to the skin. I also cook with it a lot, so skin gets it from both the inside AND the outside
    Oil in general offers some protection - even if it's minimal - even sebum is slightly protective - giving oilier skinned folks a little protection over lighter skinned folks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tara tootie View Post
    LOL. I know OIL seems like it should increase the tan but I keep reading that it is protective!
    PS Anyone know of a good sunscreen that blocks ALL the rays? Not just the tanning ones but the DNA-mutating ones as well?!
    Tanning ones ARE the DNA mutating ones as well...that's why it's so important to get
    1)just what you need
    2)lots of dietary antixodiant protection and topical antioxidant protection
    3)saturated fat in the diet (oxidizes less easily than other fat)

    10-15 svgs fruit and veggies....topical C.....consumption of green tea......topical green tea application etc

    WRT to sunscreen: euro s/s containing both tinosorbs will typically give the best UVA protection in the higher ranges (360-400 nm) - the ones that most others don't cover.

    You'll hear often that TiO2 and ZnO are great....in theory yes. But TiO2 doesn't protect well across much of the UVA spectrum - and while ZnO does, it's exremely inefficient. A euro screen (like the Biodermas) containing both tinosorbs and avobenzone, might give a PPD of 30 (measure of UVA protection...spf only measures UVB protection) with say....10% filters but you can have a 20% ZnO sunscreen that has only a ppd of 10.

    At makeupalley.com, you can read notepads users: beethovengirl, sunscreens, sunscreendata for more scientific sunscreen info. Terakis is also a great notepad.

    Carol Demas has written two fantastic books that are available on lulu and cafepress respectively: Sunscreens and Make your Own Effective Cosmetic Treatments.

    Neutrogena's new pure and free baby and the adult version ("sensitive skin") appears to have boosters formulated into the mix resulting in a higher PPD with just physical filters - even my uber-quick-to pigment child isn't freckling with the neutro baby/sens skin s/s applied at proper use rates.

    I stick with my beloved bioderma or avene s/s....realizing of course that they are not at all waterproof or water resisent.

    Quote Originally Posted by tasteslikeburning View Post
    I know this is probably very CW of me and will get me lots of flack........but I don't think there is a safe way to tan. CW dogma or not, skin cancer is the #1 cancer in America at least. Embrace the pale...don't fear it. Or ya know...Don't.Just my two cents.
    In theory - I agree. It's likely low D levels that are the most risky though when it comes to skin cancer. Which cancer was first associated with low D levels? Shock of all shocks: melanoma. Imagine this scenario - we work indoors and have resultingly, the low D levels you'd expect. Low D levels increase our risk of cancers. Then on the weekends, we head out, low vitamin D levels and all, sunscreen and all. But, the s/s only blocks UVB (and D production), the lack of good UVA filtering (depsite bottle claims), allows the deeply penetrating UVA rays to bombard our skin and trigger melanoma formation.....because we have low circulating 25(OH)D levels.

    This is such a problem in australia not only b/c of the thinning ozone, but because this is perhaps the largest displacement of uberwhite people living in a land for which they are totally genetically adapted.....south africa is another such snapshot.

    People with high circulating 25(OH)D rarely get melanoma. Interestingly basal and squamous cell carcinomas, which don't carry a great deal of risk, are associated with a decreased risk of melanoma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stabby View Post
    I wait until about noon when the sun is covering half of my doorstep and lay with my head in the shade and most of my body in the sun. *nodme*
    That's exactly what my daughter did yesterday when we were sunning...that was she could watch Legend of the Seeker. *thud*

    Quote Originally Posted by FabMandy View Post
    I thought the rays from the sun that tanned you were also the rays from the sun that triggered your skin to produce vitamin D?
    UVB triggers the production of cholecalciferol (d3) from cholesterol in the skin. UVB can also tan us and burn us - though it burns us more quickly than UVA. UVA rays are longer, penetrate more deeply and are more damaging overall b/c of the deeper penetration. It is curently though that UVA is mainly responsible for melanoma. Both are associated with photoaging......and the higher range of UVA is more closely associated with skin sagging.

    The bottom line is: keep the s/s exposure for d production 1)in the summer 2)midday 3)the minimum needed - ie long enough to be just before a burn would be caused......AND that when s/s is worn or when sun isn't sufficient for D production, wear excellent UVA protective s/s at proper use rates or cover up or seek shade or go indoors. Eat a diet rich in antioxidants and sat fats.

    Best,
    K

  3. #23
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    Thanks, I just did a check. Cod liver, and cod liver oil which I consumed a lot of as a child contains a lot of Vitamin D. One tablespoon which is the recommended intake per day contains 23,8 mg Vitamin D, and cod liver contains 111 mg per 100 gram. Both are a traditional food staple in the Northern part of Norway where I come from.

    However, I am not good enough with the cod liver and cod liver oil nowadays - time to pick it up again!
    Last edited by Sungrazer; 05-10-2010 at 01:04 AM.
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  4. #24
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    [QUOTE=Sungrazer;112456]Thanks, I just did a check. Cod liver, and cod liver oil which I consumed a lot of as a child contains a lot of Vitamin D. One tablespoon which is the recommended intake per day contains 23,8 mg Vitamin D, and cod liver contains 111 mg per 100 gram. Both are a traditional food staple in the Northern part of Norway where I come from.[/QUOTE

    The CLO is a great start....adding additional D will bring the D:A ratios into better alignment for better health over the long term.

    The high amounts of A in the CLO compared to the low amount of D are thought to be one of the causes of the high rates of osteoporosis in scandinavia.
    http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=...N&hl=en&tab=ws

    There are 23.8 mcg (rather than mg) in your CLO so that's sill only 900 or so IU....a far cry from the 5000 IU per day recommended by most D researchers (or more specifically 1000 IU per 25 lbs body weight).

    http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AV...A0d3BjMw&hl=en
    Vitamin D Dosing and Levels

    nmoL - units used to measure D most places in the world
    ng/mL - units used in the US
    ** Please be sure to pay attention to the units given on your lab report.
    ** Quest Labs -problems remain: at this point in time, it still appears that 25(OH)D
    results from Quest need to be divided by 1.3. to obtain results normed to the gold standard.
    See vitamindcouncil.org, grassrootshealth.net for further information.

    What should my vitamin D level be?
    see below for information on various vitamin D levels........

    ❍ 32 ng/mL (80 nmoL) is the bottom of the current reference range. Still
    leaves us in a state of substrate starvation which isn't good. And if Quest** did
    your test - see note above - you need to divide by 1.3

    ❍ 40 ng/mL (100 nmoL) the minimum recommended by currently by
    any major D researcher (see grassrootshealth.net).

    ❍ 50 ng/mL (125 nmoL) is the point at which we have sufficient substrate
    for managing calcium levels and have additional to use for other necessary
    physiological functions - including gene expression (300+ other functions in our bodies)

    ❍ 60-65 ng/mL (150-162.5 nmoL) is reasonable number for which to aim.
    It's the 'middle of the current reference range for the major US labs. European
    and canadian labs are behind the times on this one and are still generally using
    a much lower range.

    ❍ 80 ng/mL (200 nmoL) is a target number for some researchers and is still
    within the range of a physiological range of what we could achieve from sun -
    ie a physiologically appropriate level.

    ❍ 100 ng/mL (250 nmoL) is a typical serum level of 25(OH)D obtained by lifeguards,
    in South Florida, from sun only, implying that this is a very physiologically normal -
    possibly optimal? - number for which to aim.

    ❍ 200 ng/mL (500 nmoL) is the lowest blood level of 25(OH)D at which there
    has been documented D toxicity. There has never been a case reported at levels
    lower than that.


    ☑ 1000 IU (25 mcg) per 25 lbs body weight per day is a very reasonable dose of
    D3 for someone who
    → works indoors midday
    → wears clothes midday
    → avoids sun midday
    → wears any sunscreen midday

    ☑ 10,000 IU-50,000 IU vitamin D3 is produced in the skin upon full body exposure
    to sunlight......with the average of the studies being about 20,000 IU. However,
    do not take more than 1000 IU per 25 lbs body weight per day without periodic
    testing of 25(OH)D levels.

    ☑ Don't be afraid to take as much D3 as is required to raise your serum 25(OH)D to
    50-100 ng/mL (125 nmoL to 250 nmoL) There is a 25-50% variation in serum
    vitamin d levels at 'x' amount of supplementation rate due to genetic variations
    in vitamin d binding protein.

    ☑ Early AM and later afternoon sun exposure on face, hands and arms is not sufficient
    to raise vitamin D levels or maintain optimal vitamin D levels.

    ☑ Fall, Winter and Spring sun exposure is not generally sufficient to raise viamin D levels
    or to maintain optimal D levels.

    ☑ A tan does not necessarily indicate sufficient vitamin D levels. It's easy to tan from UVA
    without getting sufficient UVB to raise D levels.

    ☑ A person (tan or not) who's been getting
    →midday
    →unprotected
    →summer exposure
    →on most body skin
    to the point just before a burn occurs, may have optimal D levels during the summer.

    ☑ The Vitamin D Council (vitamindcouncil.org) has all of the D research, reference cites
    and links to peer reviewed journal articles that you'd ever want to read, plus several thousand extra

    ☑ Grassrootshealth.org has a tremendous amount of good information as well.

    ☑ Stanford and other major D research centers have podcasts in iTunes that are excellent resources.

  5. #25
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    cillakat, you are a vitamin D GODDESS!!!

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funkadelic Flash View Post
    cillakat, you are a vitamin D GODDESS!!!
    I learned from the best: Krispin Sullivan and John Cannell.....Krispin personally, John via his website. John gets a few things wrong (vitamin A, paleolithic intake of meat/A etc) but it's so so few things compared to the literally everything else that he has right.

    It's worth subscribing to the newsletter from the vitamindcouncil.org

    And reading everything on the website.

    And rereading it to the point of memorization

    It's just great to be here on a board that actually cares about D and nutrition. I can stop haranguing the skincare board and my homeschool email list friends - much to their relief.

    Best,
    Katherine

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by cillakat View Post
    ☑ 1000 IU (25 mcg) per 25 lbs body weight per day is a very reasonable dose of
    D3 for someone who
    → works indoors midday
    → wears clothes midday
    → avoids sun midday
    → wears any sunscreen midday
    So, for me at 180 lbs you suggest I take 180 mcg, or 7200 IU per day if I have got the math right ( 180 / 25 = 7.2 * 1000 IU) ?
    Sometimes you need to be told the truth in order to be able to see it.

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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sungrazer View Post
    So, for me at 180 lbs you suggest I take 180 mcg, or 7200 IU per day if I have got the math right ( 180 / 25 = 7.2 * 1000 IU) ?
    Yes - at your latitude, year round.

    If you come further south and can get midday summer sun, on full body unprotected skin, to the point just before a burn would occur, then on those days you don't need to supplement

    K

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by cillakat View Post
    Yes - at your latitude, year round.

    If you come further south and can get midday summer sun, on full body unprotected skin, to the point just before a burn would occur, then on those days you don't need to supplement

    K
    Ok - thanks for your suggestion. I'll have to look into it as the largest allowed dosage to sell i Norway is 10 mcg / 400 IU per pill. Which means I need to take 18 of those each day, and that will cost me. So, I'll have to look into another source. Problem is that the only other readily available source would probably be cod liver oil of which I'd probably overdose on Vitamin A. I would have to take 8 tablespoons of cod liver oil giving me 190 mcg vitamin D and 4752 RAE units of Vitamin A. Not to mention I'd get 778 kcal alone from that, plus nasty burps all day!
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  10. #30
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    Today I was looking through really old pictures with my mother, of her father when he was young, and I was struck by the enormous contrast of one picture showing his "trucker tan". His forearms and neck were just as brown as you please, but his torso and legs were lily white. He passed away last year after a battle with alzheimers and I wonder how much better I could do than he did. He was a hardworking man and did well by his community, and afaik, ate reasonably well, but did eat loads of starches and had a taste for "chaw". If PB had come along soon enough, could he have been spared such debilitation?

    I think I'll be laying out tomorrow here at 200' ASL.

    Primal since February 2010. On seventh round of P90x.

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