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Thread: "Calories in / Calories Out" -- Please Stop the Madness page 35

  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
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    Can you please read about what the alternative hypothesis is before you try another rambling post refuting it?

    Do calories matter? « The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D. The Eating Academy | Peter Attia, M.D.

    "Proponents of the Alternative Hypothesis argue that intake (i.e., food) plays a role on hormones and enzymes in the body that have a resulting impact on energy output, and even subsequent input. For example, eating one food over another can increase or decrease appetite, increase or decrease REE, increase or decrease AEE, and even impact TEF. While the effect on each of these may be modest in isolation, even small changes over the course of days can result in significant changes over months or years." -P. Attia

    So the fact that your fat cells get "hungry" (steal food away from the rest of you) results in additional hunger, and/or decreased non-exercise energy expenditure. It's not the proper working of the fat storage machinery that we're concerned with. It's the tendency for broken metabolisms as a result of accidentally turning the fat-storage machinery up to 11. And it's not proper insulin secretion that causes it, it's insulin secretion turned up to 11 (because the sensitivity of your muscle cells to insulin gets turned way down).

    I personally think the Kitavans represent a Black Swan to the claim that carbohydrate causes insulin resistance (not sure whether AdamK is with me here), but that doesn't refute the evidence that a VLC diet may help restore insulin sensitivity. Again, it could be PUFA's or HFCS or any other 4-letter word that's running around breaking metabolisms. The Alternative Hypothesis, itself, doesn't have a dog in that fight. It just says "you grow tall by eating more calories than you expend, but you don't grow tall because you eat more calories than you expend. Growing fat is like growing tall"
    Rich, I'm totally with ya! The AH has no dog in the fight. Kitavan, Shmitavans. It's not just "carbs are the devil" etc.

    Jenn and others, I'm seriously happy to answer your thoughtful questions and problems with the AH. But I still would first like an answer to the question I raised (ranted ) last night:

    If CICO is the answer, fine. Then just tell me -- because you believe insulin has zero importance with respect to how fat gets stored in fat cells -- HOW does it happen? What's the biochemistry? How do calories become fat?

    I would like an answer to the effect of "the biochemistry by which fatty acids become TGs in the adipose tissue is XYZ" wherein XYZ has to do with ACTUAL biochemistry (and not insulin in any way) and not just "it happens."

  2. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamK View Post
    If CICO is the answer, fine. Then just tell me -- because you believe insulin has zero importance with respect to how fat gets stored in fat cells -- HOW does it happen? What's the biochemistry? How do calories become fat?
    It doesn’t matter whether fat is stored in fat cells or not - what matters if you are in a positive or negative energy balance - that’s what determines the outcome of a diet! So a calorie deficit overrules everything else related to weight loss, you will lose more calories from your body than you stores, and most of this will come from stored body fat, even on a crappy diet! Forget about insulin, because even if you inject it, when in a calorie deficit, you still lose stored body fat since a calorie deficit overrules everything else, also hormones...
    Last edited by Gorbag; 04-06-2013 at 09:25 AM.

  3. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    It doesn’t matter whether fat is stored in fat cells or not - what matters if you are in a positive or negative energy balance - that’s what determines the outcome of a diet! So a calorie deficit overrules everything else related to weight loss, you will lose more calories from your body than you stores, and most of this will come from stored body fat, even on a crappy diet! Forget about insulin, because even if you inject it, when in a calorie deficit, you still lose stored body fat since a calorie deficit overrules everything else, also hormones...

    Gor, I'm not asking for editorializing. I know you believe in CICO.

    I'm asking HOW DOES IT HAPPEN? what's the biochemistry?

  4. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Forget about insulin, because even if you inject it, when in a calorie deficit, you still lose stored body fat since a calorie deficit overrules everything else, also hormones...
    To that specific point, how do you explain away this picture, which shows pendulous subcutaneous fat deposits caused (per the NEJM authors) by "insulin lipohypertrophy."

    Would that person have prevented/lost those pendulous fat masses disappeared had he/she gone a few extra miles on the treadmill??

    There's a metaphorical picture of the earth from space. I'm fascinated by how you're going to retain unstinting faith that the earth is still flat.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamK View Post
    To that specific point, how do you explain away this picture, which shows pendulous subcutaneous fat deposits caused (per the NEJM authors) by "insulin lipohypertrophy."

    Would that person have prevented/lost those pendulous fat masses disappeared had he/she gone a few extra miles on the treadmill??

    There's a metaphorical picture of the earth from space. I'm fascinated by how you're going to retain unstinting faith that the earth is still flat.
    Heh, hormones and/or genetic's will influence your bodycomposition of course, but they cannot create anything out of thin air! So more calories stored in the body require a calories surplus over time and vice versa a deficit for weightloss, but the appearance of HOW this weight is actually stored in the body will be influnced by factors like gender, age, genetic's, hormones etc...

  6. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdamK View Post
    Rich, I'm totally with ya! The AH has no dog in the fight. Kitavan, Shmitavans. It's not just "carbs are the devil" etc.

    Jenn and others, I'm seriously happy to answer your thoughtful questions and problems with the AH. But I still would first like an answer to the question I raised (ranted ) last night:

    If CICO is the answer, fine. Then just tell me -- because you believe insulin has zero importance with respect to how fat gets stored in fat cells -- HOW does it happen? What's the biochemistry? How do calories become fat?

    I would like an answer to the effect of "the biochemistry by which fatty acids become TGs in the adipose tissue is XYZ" wherein XYZ has to do with ACTUAL biochemistry (and not insulin in any way) and not just "it happens."
    Why are you convinced that fat storage is inherently bad? Are you zero percent body fat? Of course we store fat, that's natural and beneficial to our survival. How quickly we turnover the storage for energy is part of the equation that balances weight or creates a deficit/surplus.

    Fat storage is not bad, m'kay? You're fixated on the wrong arguments.
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  7. #347
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gorbag View Post
    Heh, hormones and/or genetic's will influence your bodycomposition of course, but they cannot create anything out of thin air! So more calories stored in the body require a calories surplus over time and vice versa a deficit for weightloss, but the appearance of HOW this weight is actually stored in the body will be influnced by factors like gender, age, genetic's, hormones etc...
    This. Shift the fat to the left and right and it would be the infamous love-handle problem area that millions of people complain about. There are isolated incidents of all sorts of weird bodily manifestations, mutations happen.
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  8. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Why are you convinced that fat storage is inherently bad? Are you zero percent body fat? Of course we store fat, that's natural and beneficial to our survival. How quickly we turnover the storage for energy is part of the equation that balances weight or creates a deficit/surplus.

    Fat storage is not bad, m'kay? You're fixated on the wrong arguments.
    Thanks for your response, Jenn. I don't believe fat storage is bad Agree with much of your statement here.

    I'm just saying -- divorced from the rest of the mishegas we're all discussing -- how does it happen? What's the biochemistry? b/c at the end of the day, if we want to fix our broken adipocytes and help others deal with theirs, we need to first understand the biochemistry. It's not magic. So what's the biochem?

  9. #349
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    It's too deep for you to understand. I could tell you, but then I'd have people in suits knocking on my door ready to take me in. As it is I'm already hiding behind 6 proxies, and they're still watching.
    Longing is the agony of the nearness of the distant

  10. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    It's too deep for you to understand. I could tell you, but then I'd have people in suits knocking on my door ready to take me in. As it is I'm already hiding behind 6 proxies, and they're still watching.

    hee

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