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Thread: "Calories in / Calories Out" -- Please Stop the Madness page 18

  1. #171
    kiwigal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumifer View Post
    LOL. Your dislike of science shows :-) Guess you never heard of the law of the conservation of energy :-D

    It's not hard at all to gain weight while eating <50g carbs / day.

    Agreed!!!!! I've been eating less than 50 grams of carbs with plenty of fat for over a year. If I don't count calories then I do gain serious amounts of weight!!!!

  2. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Except she's likely already starving and listless because her adipose tissue is insatiable and her satiety signaling mechanisms are broken. And she's depleted in essential nutrients and will never feel full.
    That's lots of handwaving :-) Also a nicely circular argument: you start by assuming her metabolism is broken and then go: Hey! Her metabolism is broken!

  3. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumifer View Post
    That's a strawman.

    CICO (in the people-with-more-than-half-a-brain version) says that the ONLY way to lose weight is to output more energy than you intake. The problem is that your energy output varies, a lot, and outside of a metabolic ward it's really hard to track it properly (BMR calculations are pretty useless). That insistence, while obvious, is necessary because there are people (look around on this very board) who'll tell you that with proper macro ratios (or magic protein powder, or fat, or something) calories do not matter at all.

    One consequence of CICO is that "eat less" advice IS GUARANTEED TO WORK if you're willing to go into starvation mode. Issues of willpower and health aside, it's physical inevitability that at some level of "eat less" you will lose weight. That's a useful characteristic, rare in the dieting world :-)
    It's not a strawman at all. CICO is an accurate description, but a horrible prescription. And you're agreeing with everything I said. Of course eating less will work if you're willing to starve yourself completely. But that hyperbole aside, CICO dogma has proven to be a failure for the millions of overweight people. Nobody's arguing that we can make energy out of fairy dust here.

    Again, CICO = description, CICO =/= prescription

  4. #174
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    Calling CICO "a dogma" is like claiming that the law of gravitation is "a dogma"!

  5. #175
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    I'm nervous to even speak up because everyone in this thread seems so angry... but I can't help feeling like this argument is pointless.

    Let's be honest, most people who have been paleo/primal for a long time have stuck with it because it's given them results -- whether those results came for 20g of carbs or 150g of carbs. All of your results should speak for themselves. If you're in great shape, and you got there from doing vlc, then clearly vlc works! If you're in great shape and you got there from eating moderate fat, moderate carb, then awesome... that shows that moderate fat/moderate carb works, too!

    Unless one of you is in considerably better shape than everyone else, and have attained it with minimal effort, then I don't think anyone's got any right to say everyone else is wrong.

  6. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumifer View Post
    That's lots of handwaving :-) Also a nicely circular argument: you start by assuming her metabolism is broken and then go: Hey! Her metabolism is broken!
    Isn't the fact that she's overweight a demonstration of a broken metabolism? Unless she's planning on competing in sumo...

  7. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    It's not a strawman at all. CICO is an accurate description, but a horrible prescription.
    I don't know -- horrible in which way? Most actual "prescriptions" of that sort are not CICO at all -- they pull an arbitrary number out of thin air -- say 2000 cal/day -- and say that you need to eat, say 1,500 cal/day and that will make you lose weight. This is nonsense, of course, and it's not CICO either (because it ignores the CO part).

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    CICO dogma has proven to be a failure for the millions of overweight people.
    Every weight-loss advice has proven to be a failure :-/ There's nothing that's easy and works for everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Nobody's arguing that we can make energy out of fairy dust here.
    Actually, NOT make energy out of fairy dust :-D But yeah, people do, exhibit A: the OP of this very thread.
    Last edited by Lumifer; 04-04-2013 at 12:20 PM.

  8. #178
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    Quote Originally Posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Isn't the fact that she's overweight a demonstration of a broken metabolism?
    No, not at all. It's *normal* metabolism to accumulate fat reserves in times of plenty.

  9. #179
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalStudent View Post
    I'm nervous to even speak up because everyone in this thread seems so angry... but I can't help feeling like this argument is pointless.

    Let's be honest, most people who have been paleo/primal for a long time have stuck with it because it's given them results -- whether those results came for 20g of carbs or 150g of carbs. All of your results should speak for themselves. If you're in great shape, and you got there from doing vlc, then clearly vlc works! If you're in great shape and you got there from eating moderate fat, moderate carb, then awesome... that shows that moderate fat/moderate carb works, too!

    Unless one of you is in considerably better shape than everyone else, and have attained it with minimal effort, then I don't think anyone's got any right to say everyone else is wrong.
    Nah. That just makes too much sense. If everyone was to agree with it, the existence of this forum would pretty much be pointless.

  10. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrimalStudent View Post
    I'm nervous to even speak up because everyone in this thread seems so angry... but I can't help feeling like this argument is pointless.

    Let's be honest, most people who have been paleo/primal for a long time have stuck with it because it's given them results -- whether those results came for 20g of carbs or 150g of carbs. All of your results should speak for themselves. If you're in great shape, and you got there from doing vlc, then clearly vlc works! If you're in great shape and you got there from eating moderate fat, moderate carb, then awesome... moderate fat/moderate carb works, too!

    Unless one of you is in considerably better shape than everyone else, and have attained it with minimal effort, then I don't think anyone's got any right to say everyone else is wrong.
    This. And I feel like tools like "The Carbohydrate Curve", while technically inaccurate, are useful for people who don't have any experience with nutrition. Going from fast food burgers, fries and a coke to steak and salads will do wonders for someone, and once they understand more and can put new knowledge to use, they already have lost a chunk of weight. They can know how it feels to run mostly on fat, then try upping carbs, or going even more VLC.

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