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Thread: Two cents on cross fit wanted ? page 2

  1. #11
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    Tell other CrossFitters you puked after a WOD. Will they tell you to watch the intensity and not overdo it, like they should? Or, will they kind of smile and nod, acknowledging how tough CrossFit is? I suspect the latter. Maybe I'm wrong.
    You may be, and are, wrong. Okay, I shouldn't say that as such an absolute, so: that hasn't been my experience. And I've had a pretty widely varied Crossfit experience. What you describe just does not and would not happen among the vast majority of Crossfit coaches and clients. Again, there are always the Crossfit dudebros who are very vocal about how badass their puking is, but they comprise maybe 1% of the Crossfitting population. I've heard people talk about puking during a workout generally to the tune of, "It happened once, it was the worst, I went way too hard, I've listened to my body since then." And my coaches straight up say, "You should not be making yourself puke." Those exact words.

    I am not sure I follow you. So you're saying that you trust your local CrossFit coaches, that have been certified by CrossFit HQ, but you don't trust CrossFit HQ directly?
    I can see why that would confuse you, but basically, yes.

    If HQ don't have the programming right, why do you think the local box does - they've been taught by HQ!
    I'm sorry to be blunt, but this just illustrates how little you know what you're talking about. The vast majority of Crossfit coaches (okay, I'll qualify: that I have met and worked with) are either ex-athletes or longtime trainers with years and years of training and programming experience in a huge variety of athletic fields. They get their Level 1 Cert so that they are allowed to affiliate as Crossfit. But their training and programming expertise is actually that, expertise. Most coaches at my box list their Crossfit cert last on a long list of qualifications. Why, you might ask, don't they just open their own gyms and do their own training, then? Well, because 1) they genuinely love Crossfit and being part of the global xfit community, and 2) they want to make money.

    To open a CrossFit affiliated gym you need:

    - Level I CrossFit certification
    - Money
    Agreed. And there are definitely boxes that have shitty programming and shitty coaching, and I've said in this thread and many others that your experience with Crossfit is all about the programming/coaching and you have to find a good box. But honestly, in my experience, these crappy boxes are more rare than you'd think. Most Crossfit affiliates I've been to are excellent.

    Pick any local WODs that you do, and ask the coaches why specifically they choose the exercises that they do, the rep ranges that they use, the interaction between the exercises, the workout-to-workout progress and recovery, and how they envision long term progress in all the different physical stats beyond just getting better at WODs due to general endurance adaptations. The response I always heard was the CrossFit party line of "increased work capacity across broad time and modal domains".
    We have had very, very different experiences, then. My coaches are incredibly thoughtful, knowledgable, and expert in the field. They can--and do, all the time, when people stay behind after class to ask questions--give long, detailed explanations of elements, form, programming, recovery, you name it. Long story short, there is a method to their madness and they can explain that method down to its underpinnings. That blows that you've been given rote answers, but it's just not been my experience at the majority of gyms at which I've trained. (And really, it's incredibly obvious when an affiliate is not up to snuff. There's one in particular in CA at which I trained recently that was appallingly bad in its coaching and programming, and the coach could barely take a stab at answering deeper questions. But that was one single experience in... it's probably been ten or eleven different Crossfits I've been to, over the past couple years, all over the country and also in Canada.)

    WOD 1
    For time:
    115 pound Shoulder press, 10 reps
    115 pound Overhead squat, 15 reps
    115 pound Push press, 20 reps
    115 pound Front squat, 25 reps
    115 pound Push jerk, 30 reps
    115 pound Back squat, 35 reps

    WOD 2
    Row 1000 meters
    20 GHD sit-ups
    Row 750 meters
    40 Toes to bar
    Row 500 meters
    60 Sit-ups
    I agree that those are badly thought-out WODs, and I've never done one like that at any xfit gym. I will reiterate: when you go to Crossfit, you are paying for the specialized programming and coaching; you are not simply paying for people to watch you do the main site WODs, and friends to do them with.

    Find me a single person who can explain why those exact exercises were used, why for those rep ranges, why with those weights? Also, how does this fit, precisely, into a long-term plan and how will progress on all these things be measured?
    I'm sure whoever created those workouts had a goal in mind, but since those workouts would never get thrown at me at my box, I don't really care to think about it too hard. It's kind of a moot point, y'know?

    The OP of this thread is working out at an actual Crossfit gym with that gym's particular programming. Talking about the main site WODs just doesn't really apply. If you spent any time in the xfit community, at a xfit gym, listened to any xfit podcasts or read any magazines or anything, you'd glean pretty quickly that the sport has evolved waaaaaaaaay beyond the main site's offerings. It's a whole different animal from what you perceive. I'm not saying you're wrong or dumb; I can totally see how you picked up those perceptions. But they're just not applicable to the current Crossfit landscape. And they're especially useless when giving advice to someone who isn't just trying to hack it out on their own, who is indeed being coached and following specialized programming.

    You can dislike Crossfit all you want. It's really okay. It won't offend me. I'm just trying to offer a counterpoint to your perceptions, which were possibly well-founded at one point in time, but don't apply to Crossfit as it currently exists.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    You may be, and are, wrong. Okay, I shouldn't say that as such an absolute, so: that hasn't been my experience. And I've had a pretty widely varied Crossfit experience. What you describe just does not and would not happen among the vast majority of Crossfit coaches and clients. Again, there are always the Crossfit dudebros who are very vocal about how badass their puking is, but they comprise maybe 1% of the Crossfitting population. I've heard people talk about puking during a workout generally to the tune of, "It happened once, it was the worst, I went way too hard, I've listened to my body since then." And my coaches straight up say, "You should not be making yourself puke." Those exact words.
    Like I said, this attitude comes from HQ. Obviously you can find counterexamples, but the organization behind the training has, to an extent, the attitude I described.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    I'm sorry to be blunt, but this just illustrates how little you know what you're talking about. The vast majority of Crossfit coaches (okay, I'll qualify: that I have met and worked with) are either ex-athletes or longtime trainers with years and years of training and programming experience in a huge variety of athletic fields. They get their Level 1 Cert so that they are allowed to affiliate as Crossfit. But their training and programming expertise is actually that, expertise. Most coaches at my box list their Crossfit cert last on a long list of qualifications. Why, you might ask, don't they just open their own gyms and do their own training, then? Well, because 1) they genuinely love Crossfit and being part of the global xfit community, and 2) they want to make money.
    So do they follow the methodology from CrossFit, or do they follow their own? Because if they just do their own thing and ignore CrossFit HQ, they're not really doing CrossFit, are they?

    I'm not talking about just following main site WOD, I'm talking about following CrossFit's methodology, training principles, and overall structure.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    Agreed. And there are definitely boxes that have shitty programming and shitty coaching, and I've said in this thread and many others that your experience with Crossfit is all about the programming/coaching and you have to find a good box. But honestly, in my experience, these crappy boxes are more rare than you'd think. Most Crossfit affiliates I've been to are excellent.
    I don't know about the statistics behind CrossFit box quality nor how rare or common bad ones are.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    We have had very, very different experiences, then. My coaches are incredibly thoughtful, knowledgable, and expert in the field. They can--and do, all the time, when people stay behind after class to ask questions--give long, detailed explanations of elements, form, programming, recovery, you name it. Long story short, there is a method to their madness and they can explain that method down to its underpinnings. That blows that you've been given rote answers, but it's just not been my experience at the majority of gyms at which I've trained. (And really, it's incredibly obvious when an affiliate is not up to snuff. There's one in particular in CA at which I trained recently that was appallingly bad in its coaching and programming, and the coach could barely take a stab at answering deeper questions. But that was one single experience in... it's probably been ten or eleven different Crossfits I've been to, over the past couple years, all over the country and also in Canada.)
    Please explain their programming then. Pick the best coach from the best gym you've worked with, pick some workouts, and explain the precise methodology behind them. I realize this is a bit of work, and I imagine you won't do it, but my point still stands. I've never seen CrossFit programming explained with precision. If you can explain it, please do, I'd like to hear it.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    I agree that those are badly thought-out WODs, and I've never done one like that at any xfit gym. I will reiterate: when you go to Crossfit, you are paying for the specialized programming and coaching; you are not simply paying for people to watch you do the main site WODs, and friends to do them with.
    Don't you usually work in a class and do the box's WOD? What are the last several WODs from a gym you go to, if you don't mind posting?

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    The OP of this thread is working out at an actual Crossfit gym with that gym's particular programming. Talking about the main site WODs just doesn't really apply. If you spent any time in the xfit community, at a xfit gym, listened to any xfit podcasts or read any magazines or anything, you'd glean pretty quickly that the sport has evolved waaaaaaaaay beyond the main site's offerings. It's a whole different animal from what you perceive. I'm not saying you're wrong or dumb; I can totally see how you picked up those perceptions. But they're just not applicable to the current Crossfit landscape. And they're especially useless when giving advice to someone who isn't just trying to hack it out on their own, who is indeed being coached and following specialized programming.

    You can dislike Crossfit all you want. It's really okay. It won't offend me. I'm just trying to offer a counterpoint to your perceptions, which were possibly well-founded at one point in time, but don't apply to Crossfit as it currently exists.
    How is CrossFit now a different animal? You still do WODs, you still do short intense random (until proven otherwise, this is what they are) workouts, you still believe it is the way to attaining high level strength, endurance, flexibility, etc that CrossFit promises, don't you? Tell me how it is now "waaaaaaaaay" beyond that.

    Also, if CrossFit is now detached from HQ's programming and teachings, which is what you're implying, you're just doing your own circuit training and calling it CrossFit. In my earlier post I made up a bunch of crap WODs, can I call them CrossFit? If not, what constitutes a true CrossFit workout and overall program?

  3. #13
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    Like I said, this attitude comes from HQ.
    I actually totally agree with this, and cringe and laugh at some of the shit they put out. Especially some of these WODs we've been doing for the open this year; I think they're stupid crazy, some of them downright dangerous. Where you're going wrong, though, is assuming the HQ attitude is the attitude shared and propagated by the affiliates. It couldn't be further from the truth. Affiliates are really like their own little separate subcultures, with their own programming and training philosophies. Everyone's bound together under the greater Crossfit methodology and movements, but there's a much higher degree of differentiation and individuality than you think.

    Pick the best coach from the best gym you've worked with, pick some workouts, and explain the precise methodology behind them. I realize this is a bit of work, and I imagine you won't do it, but my point still stands.
    Well... no, actually, it doesn't, necessarily. Simply because I don't have the time, obligation, or quite frankly the slightest smidge of motivation to do all your research for you, does not mean your point is valid.

    And what is your point, exactly? "Crossfit is bad"? Cool, agree to disagree. I've already said your opinion doesn't offend me, and I don't think you're necessarily wrong. It's a debatable point. You're just using invalid evidence to debate it. The things you said earlier about high-rep oly lifting and combinations of joint stressors? Now that is valid evidence, and I'd be interested in having (and do have, actually, with fellow Crossfitters) a conversation about that.

    But you've basically walked into this thread started by an already avid Crossfitter and said, "Crossfit is bad because they glorify puking and rhabdo and their workouts have crazy shitballs programming and their coaches can't explain dick about anything." I was just trying to point out that those are misconceptions rooted in a long-standing cliche that doesn't hold true to the current state of the sport.

    How is Crossfit now a different animal?
    Put simply: money. Last year the winner's purse at the Crossfit Games was half a million dollars. It's only going to go up. The entrants to the sport these days aren't just garage gym enthusiasts, they're NFL contenders and top-level collegiate athletes looking to make their mark in a new sport on which attention, sponsorships, and cold hard cash are current raining like Hurricane Sandy. So, along with this skyrocketing of Crossfit's profile comes a higher degree of differentiation between boxes and their training styles. Coaches become "name" coaches. Boxes aren't just gyms for typical people looking to get in shape, they're also training centers looking to attract and develop elite athletes for competition. What I'm trying to say is that when you say "Crossfit", you mean a style of workout, and when the actual Crossfit community says "Crossfit", they mean a culture based on a hugely profitable up-and-coming sport. I know that sounds hyperbolic and grandiose, but it's the reality of where it's come since the days of guys slamming around weights in their homemade garage gyms based on WODs posted to Crossfit.com.

    So it could be that we're just talking about two diferent things, here.

    In my earlier post I made up a bunch of crap WODs, can I call them Crossfit?
    I'm not super knowledgable about the affiliate requirements vis-a-vis programming, but from what little I know about it, having a couple friends who own their own affiliates: yup, as long as you had a Level 1 and were affiliated, you could basically do that. I don't know why you would, because your gym would probably not make money or gain clients, and your liability insurance would probably not survive the injuries you'd end up inflicting on what clients you did have, and it would be sort of a shitty way to generally exist in life, but dude, you do what you want.

    If you can explain it, please do, I'd like to hear it.
    I totally can't. Never claimed I could. That's why I pay qualified fitness professionals to do it for me. If you'd like good programming designed by people who know what they're doing and executed with an eye for form, progress, and recovery, well... you could do what I did, and find a really good Crossfit box to join. Seriously, though, I'm not going to sit here and try to convince you of anything, and I'm certainly not going to get into a dick-waving contest over who knows more about programming, or watch you pick apart specific WODs I've done. That's pointless and tiresome. My only aim was to offer a counterpoint to some of your claims, based on my experience with Crossfit. Agree, disagree, like Crossfit, hate Crossfit, it's entirely up to you.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    Where you're going wrong, though, is assuming the HQ attitude is the attitude shared and propagated by the affiliates. It couldn't be further from the truth.
    Maybe, but it's quite logical to be suspect of those who are affiliated with an organization that supports such views.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    Well... no, actually, it doesn't, necessarily. Simply because I don't have the time, obligation, or quite frankly the slightest smidge of motivation to do all your research for you, does not mean your point is valid.

    And what is your point, exactly? "Crossfit is bad"? Cool, agree to disagree. I've already said your opinion doesn't offend me, and I don't think you're necessarily wrong. It's a debatable point. You're just using invalid evidence to debate it. The things you said earlier about high-rep oly lifting and combinations of joint stressors? Now that is valid evidence, and I'd be interested in having (and do have, actually, with fellow Crossfitters) a conversation about that.
    My point, in this particular case, is that CrossFit does not have structure behind their programming. Lack of methodology behind a training plan can lead to all kinds of things, from lackluster results, to over-training and injury.

    It's not just main site WODs, it's pretty much all WODs I have seen. I didn't expect you to do any research, I was just entertaining that I would be open to the idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    But you've basically walked into this thread started by an already avid Crossfitter and said, "Crossfit is bad because they glorify puking and rhabdo and their workouts have crazy shitballs programming and their coaches can't explain dick about anything." I was just trying to point out that those are misconceptions rooted in a long-standing cliche that doesn't hold true to the current state of the sport.
    Well, the OP is concerned with injury and over-training and is asking for advice about CrossFit. My observations regarding its lack of cohesion fit pretty well with the potential for such things to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    Put simply: money. Last year the winner's purse at the Crossfit Games was half a million dollars. It's only going to go up. The entrants to the sport these days aren't just garage gym enthusiasts, they're NFL contenders and top-level collegiate athletes looking to make their mark in a new sport on which attention, sponsorships, and cold hard cash are current raining like Hurricane Sandy. So, along with this skyrocketing of Crossfit's profile comes a higher degree of differentiation between boxes and their training styles. Coaches become "name" coaches. Boxes aren't just gyms for typical people looking to get in shape, they're also training centers looking to attract and develop elite athletes for competition. What I'm trying to say is that when you say "Crossfit", you mean a style of workout, and when the actual Crossfit community says "Crossfit", they mean a culture based on a hugely profitable up-and-coming sport. I know that sounds hyperbolic and grandiose, but it's the reality of where it's come since the days of guys slamming around weights in their homemade garage gyms based on WODs posted to Crossfit.com.

    So it could be that we're just talking about two diferent things, here.
    I don't see how CrossFit's fundamental approach has changed based on what you say. If a typical person does CrossFit at a gym now, versus say 3 years ago, what has fundamentally changed? You're talking about the top echelons, not the typical case.

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    I'm not super knowledgable about the affiliate requirements vis-a-vis programming, but from what little I know about it, having a couple friends who own their own affiliates: yup, as long as you had a Level 1 and were affiliated, you could basically do that. I don't know why you would, because your gym would probably not make money or gain clients, and your liability insurance would probably not survive the injuries you'd end up inflicting on what clients you did have, and it would be sort of a shitty way to generally exist in life, but dude, you do what you want.
    This partly illustrates my point. If I am free to concoct random bullshit for workouts and it's a-OK by the organization behind the sport, what does it say about the organization and the inherent quality one might encounter?

    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    I totally can't. Never claimed I could. That's why I pay qualified fitness professionals to do it for me. If you'd like good programming designed by people who know what they're doing and executed with an eye for form, progress, and recovery, well... you could do what I did, and find a really good Crossfit box to join.
    If you can't explain the programming, it means you don't understand it and/or it has not been presented to you clearly. Since that is the case, how can you determine that the coaches you work with are indeed the good ones?

    One last point I wanted to make was in regards to qualifications. You said many of the coaches you work with have been in the industry for a long time and have a long list of credentials, on top of which are their CrossFit certifications. Well, that might make them good at coaching whatever non-CrossFit stuff they know, but it doesn't translate to CrossFit per se. Specifically, a weight lifting coach might be great at teaching and programming for Olympic lifting, a running coach might be great at teaching running technique and training runners, a gymnastics coach... etc. This has carryover to teaching specific movements and techniques but not CrossFit programming.

    What certification out there teaches someone how to properly combine running, rowing, jump roping, weight lifting, gymnastics etc, into a cohesive, sustainable, and effective program that develops all aspects of fitness?
    Last edited by quikky; 04-04-2013 at 10:48 PM.

  5. #15
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    I have lifted weights for 15+ years. I have never been injured. I tried cross fit earlier late last year and i had to layoff weights for a month thanks to an injury. Thanks, but no thanks.
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  6. #16
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    If you can't explain the programming, it means you don't understand it and/or it has not been presented to you clearly. Since that is the case, how can you determine that the coaches you work with are indeed the good ones?

    One last point I wanted to make was in regards to qualifications. You said many of the coaches you work with have been in the industry for a long time and have a long list of credentials, on top of which are their CrossFit certifications. Well, that might make them good at coaching whatever non-CrossFit stuff they know, but it doesn't translate to CrossFit per se. Specifically, a weight lifting coach might be great at teaching and programming for Olympic lifting, a running coach might be great at teaching running technique and training runners, a gymnastics coach... etc. This has carryover to teaching specific movements and techniques but not CrossFit programming.
    These two paragraphs tell me that we have fundamentally different viewpoints on both the role of coaches and the way they do their jobs--and actually, on Crossfit in general, as a mode of exercise--so I don't think we're ever going to get on the same page no matter how much we go back and forth. I extend my olive branch and wish you luck with your endeavors.

    OP, I've been Crossfitting 5x/wk for 8 months. I've yet to be injured, and keep getting stronger and faster. My best advice is to do a couple weeks at 5x, then take a deload week, and reassess how you feel then.

  7. #17
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    I take X-Fit workouts from the main site, and normally, once I drop the weight down (normally to like 1/3 of the posted) to what I can handle for the number of reps, and ignoring the time frame, they surprisingly allow for perfect recovery. The one notable exception was the workout on March 23rd, with 150 wall throws tired me out too much to do double jumps right after, and I landed badly and twisted my knee. I am planning to start again tomorrow, after doing a simple workout of OHP/PP and elliptical yesterday & hopefully swimming today, but I will stop once I feel fatigued next time or at least substitute plyometrics, which is the most dangerous part of the X-fit for me.

    If there is one thing that X-fit doesn't integrate that I wish they did, it's swimming and aquatic workouts.
    Last edited by Leida; 04-05-2013 at 07:24 AM.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leida View Post
    I take X-Fit workouts from the main site, and normally, once I drop the weight down (normally to like 1/3 of the posted) to what I can handle for the number of reps, and ignoring the time frame, they surprisingly allow for perfect recovery. The one notable exception was the workout on March 23rd, with 150 wall throws tired me out too much to do double jumps right after, and I landed badly and twisted my knee. I am planning to start again tomorrow, after doing a simple workout of OHP/PP and elliptical yesterday & hopefully swimming today, but I will stop once I feel fatigued next time or at least substitute plyometrics, which is the most dangerous part of the X-fit for me.

    If there is one thing that X-fit doesn't integrate that I wish they did, it's swimming and aquatic workouts.
    Do you know what intensity they're meant to be done at? Obviously if you decrease the intensity enough and remove time constraints, recovery will not be an issue. I can run marathons almost daily without recovery issues because I scale them down to 2.62 miles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by heatseeker View Post
    These two paragraphs tell me that we have fundamentally different viewpoints on both the role of coaches and the way they do their jobs--and actually, on Crossfit in general, as a mode of exercise--so I don't think we're ever going to get on the same page no matter how much we go back and forth. I extend my olive branch and wish you luck with your endeavors.

    OP, I've been Crossfitting 5x/wk for 8 months. I've yet to be injured, and keep getting stronger and faster. My best advice is to do a couple weeks at 5x, then take a deload week, and reassess how you feel then.
    I'm not sure what you mean by different views on coaching. I just want to know the exact methodology behind CrossFit programming and no one can tell me what it is.

    That said, if you feel confident in your coaches, by all means carry on. I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do with their body.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by quikky View Post
    Do you know what intensity they're meant to be done at? Obviously if you decrease the intensity enough and remove time constraints, recovery will not be an issue. I can run marathons almost daily without recovery issues because I scale them down to 2.62 miles.
    Basically, CrossFit is perfectly appropriate for the general public as long as they don't.actually.do.CrossFit

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