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Thread: ketosis = oxidized lipoproteins?

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  1. #1
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    ketosis = oxidized lipoproteins?

    Just read this while trying to understand why people say ketosis is bad...

    “The longer you stay in ketosis, you turn yourselves into fat magnets, and you accumulate body fat more readily,” Dr. Barry Sears of the Zone diet told the same debate. “The longer you stay in ketosis, you begin to oxidize lipoproteins, so these are long-term consequences which begin to explain why high protein diets fail.”

    Been primal for about a month now. The thing I like about it is I no longer have the bloating and abdominal discomfort from trying to do a high calorie diet with wholegrains, adequate protein and about 15% fat. I no longer feel the need to be in the kitchen 6 times a day cooking, now only 3 primal meals with a snack. I love it.

    But if it does indeed cause lipoprotein oxidation isn't that a risk for arterial plaque diseases?

  2. #2
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    What evidence does he provide to support his assertion that long-term ketosis = oxidizing lipoproteins?

    I've looked at the lipoprotein issue and saw no reference at all to ketosis. Moreover, ketosis is known to be anti-inflammatory in the body, exactly the opposite of what he's claiming.

    Finally, the issue of oxidized lipoprotein always refers to 'low density' LDL. However, I eat 20g of carbs a day or fewer [for years] and am probably always in ketosis, but my LDL has been measured (VAP test) as 100% Pattern A (large, fluffy), so ketosis doesn't seem to be oxidizing my LDL at all.

    I also question his confusion of ketosis with 'high protein' diets. Ketosis comes from limiting carbs. My protein intake is consistent with my body's requirements, nothing higher. Ketosis does not automatically mean 'high protein.'

    I suggest this is just another attempt to demonize ketosis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmie View Post
    Finally, the issue of oxidized lipoprotein always refers to 'low density' LDL. However, I eat 20g of carbs a day or fewer [for years] and am probably always in ketosis, but my LDL has been measured (VAP test) as 100% Pattern A (large, fluffy), so ketosis doesn't seem to be oxidizing my LDL at all.
    Some confusion here. First, LDL is low-density lipoproteins -- the current medical thinking is that only oxidized low-density lipoproteins, LDL, are dangerous.

    Second, large and fluffy LDL are just *less prone* to oxidation. Small dense LDL oxidizes more easily, that's all. It is NOT the case that pattern B is already oxidized and pattern A is not oxidized.

    I agree that proteins have nothing to do with this. Ketotic diets are high-fat diets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by emmie View Post
    Finally, the issue of oxidized lipoprotein always refers to 'low density' LDL. However, I eat 20g of carbs a day or fewer [for years] and am probably always in ketosis, but my LDL has been measured (VAP test) as 100% Pattern A (large, fluffy), so ketosis doesn't seem to be oxidizing my LDL at all.
    But does a VAP test distinguish between an LDL and an oxidized LDL?

    Quote Originally Posted by otzi View Post
    I doubt if being in ketosis 'ruins' or changes anything permanently, but except for certain medical conditions
    What sort of medical conditions? My biggest fear with primal is developing kidney disease, I know kidney disease has to start from infection, toxic exposure, genetics and various autoimmune diseases after which time protein consumption is a problem but my grandmother died of kidney disease and apart from cakes and scones she basically ate vegetables, fruit and some meat, all grown on their farm the old fashioned way. OR my arteries are going to clog up because of the saturated fat which we are taught in nutrition is the cause of arterial disease. Also even though I eat a lot of vegetables and fruit I'm still worried about bowel cancer which took my grandfathers life, don't know what he ate though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Even if ketosis MAY improve your chances of avoiding alzheimers, so what? Constant ketosis will probably end up killing you dead years before alzheimers and dementia set in.
    Why do you say ketosis would kill one dead? So far the only thing I think is definite is the whole ketoacidosis problem but I don't think its relevant with lots of alkalising vegetables and fruit?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lumifer View Post
    "MSG is an excitotoxin and always does some degree of neurological damage."
    Why do you not believe that MSG is bad for you? If it's because of the argument that the chinese and Japanese use MSG in everything and don't suffer from multiple sclerosis or other neurological disorders, I think over there maybe they use the old fashioned made MSG, I think everywhere else they use a different form from mass production using other raw materials, I can't remember exactly, it's just something I read somewhere, like originally it was made from seaweed or something? kombu??? but the stuff used everywhere else is made from... gosh I cant remember now but apparently it was an easier way to mass produce it...

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    Sounds like junk science to me. Unless he has some evidence that raw vegans haven't unearthed yet, I am doubtful that's true. There are, however, other reasons to avoid staying in long-term ketosis. Sanity being one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Sounds like junk science to me. Unless he has some evidence that raw vegans haven't unearthed yet, I am doubtful that's true. There are, however, other reasons to avoid staying in long-term ketosis. Sanity being one of them.
    Except that Nora Gedgaudas has shown time and time again in her research that those who run off of ketones at least occasionally tend to be at lower risk for developing Alzheimer's and dementia, as well as those in ketosis seemed to perform better than those operating off of glucose in a variety of tests designed to measure brain functioning.

    Not saying that constitutes proof, but it's in stark contrast to your bold claim.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll View Post
    ...at least occasionally tend to be...
    That's just another way of saying "sometimes it randomly happens".

    We are (or should be) interested in causal relationships, not noise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumifer View Post
    That's just another way of saying "sometimes it randomly happens".

    We are (or should be) interested in causal relationships, not noise.
    You read that wrong. I'm pretty sure he was saying that people are in ketosis occasionally tend to be at lower risk for certain diseases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0Angel0 View Post
    You read that wrong. I'm pretty sure he was saying that people are in ketosis occasionally tend to be at lower risk for certain diseases.
    Ah, maybe. It not that much better, though, because "in ketosis occasionally" and "tend to be at lower risk" are both quite vague handwavy phrases.

    Any links to this research?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drumroll View Post
    Except that Nora Gedgaudas has shown time and time again in her research that those who run off of ketones at least occasionally tend to be at lower risk for developing Alzheimer's and dementia, as well as those in ketosis seemed to perform better than those operating off of glucose in a variety of tests designed to measure brain functioning.

    Not saying that constitutes proof, but it's in stark contrast to your bold claim.
    But I wasn't speaking of literal insanity, hence the wink. I was referring to the monotony that tends to accompany a very restrictive diet which can make people go "crazy" with food boredom. If people were completely psychologically and, sometimes physically, satisfied with such a restrictive diet, Atkins and vegan diets would have a higher adherence rate. They don't. Neither does Paleo, to the best my observance. I don't know what the turnover rate is exactly, but I see many, many people who have abandoned it in favor of more variety. I'd estimate that at any given time the world's population of strict Paleo eaters is under 5% (not counting breast feeding infants) and the ones who stick with it for more than a year are far fewer than that.
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