Page 12 of 33 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast
Results 111 to 120 of 324

Thread: Bread and The Bible page 12

  1. #111
    Lumifer's Avatar
    Lumifer is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    116
    Primal Blueprint Expert Certification
    Quote Originally Posted by ciep View Post
    I really hate this distinction.
    That's a valid attitude :-) but the distinction isn't going to disappear just because you don't like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciep View Post
    Here is how the terms are generally defined:

    An atheist is someone who is not convinced of the truth of god claims.
    An agnostic is someone who doesn't hold a position on the issue.
    I disagree. That is NOT how these terms are generally defined.

    An atheist answers a question "Is there a god?" with "No". An agnostic answers the same question with "I don't know". These are meaningfully different answers. The fact that both of them are different from "Yes" does not make them the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by ciep View Post
    All agnostics are atheists (because an agnostic, by definition, is not convinced that a god exists) -- but an agnostic is a specific subset of atheist, they are the ones who are uncertain about the matter.
    Nope. That may be so for your definitions of atheism and agnosticism, but that is not true for how these terms are "generally defined".

    Quote Originally Posted by ciep View Post
    But your assertion that "an atheist is quite certain that gods don't exist" is just plain wrong
    LOL. Really? Let me quote at you, via Wikipedia:

    Rowe, William L. (1998). "Agnosticism". In Edward Craig. Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-0-415-07310-3. "In the popular sense, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of a deity or deities, whereas an atheist and a theist disbelieve and believe, respectively. In the strict sense, however, agnosticism is the view that human reason is incapable of providing sufficient rational grounds to justify either the belief that deities do or do not exist. In so far as one holds that our beliefs are rational only if they are sufficiently supported by human reason, the person who accepts the philosophical position of agnosticism will hold that neither the belief that God exists nor the belief that God does not exist is rational."


    Quote Originally Posted by ciep View Post
    what really matters is what you ACTUALLY BELIEVE (claim to be true)
    However to communicate what you actually believe to other people necessitates common definitions and understanding of important terms. Trying to redefine them to suit one's own position is a very common tactic.

  2. #112
    ciep's Avatar
    ciep is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Barneveld, NY
    Posts
    533
    Okay, I'm on my phone so I apologize for not being able to quote or post links and such, but anyway... Here's the thing, I'm not redefining anything. Likewise, neither are you. The problem is simply that we're using different definitions. This is a common problem, and it is precisely what I was referring to when I stated that I hate getting into the atheist/agnostic distinction. You pointed to a source which uses your definitions, great!... I agree that the terms are popularly used that way. Likewise, they are popularly used in the way I've described (and, ironically, I could point you right back to Wikipedia to see my exact definitions). It is unfortunate that there is this imprecision in the language surrounding this subject, but it's there. On the plus side, we've both been able to understand each other clearly and we both know what the other means -- which is better than the usual result in these discussions, so hey -- not too shabby, lol.

    Language is slippery. The dictionary does not set definitions for words, rather, it describes how they are used. Often words are used differently by different groups of people. I can tell you (for what little it may be worth) that I've read and been involved in this subject quite heavily. The definitions I gave are widely used and accepted as the appropriate ones.

    To condense my definitions:
    1. Theism - the belief in a supernatural god.
    2. Antitheism - the belief that there are no supernatural gods.
    Atheism - the rejection of #1.
    Agnosticism - the rejection of both #1 and #2.

    Note that atheism rejecting #1 is NOT the same as atheism embracing #2. That position is, by definition, antitheism.

    These definitions are very widely used in today's world. You may like your definitions better, but I want you to see they they are not the only, and very likely not the commonest usages.

    It really has been great and interesting discussing this with you by the way, thanks for indulging me!

  3. #113
    Paleobird's Avatar
    Paleobird Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    I'm not projecting. I know a lot of atheists, and every one of them is dogmatic, and totally closed to other possibilities.

    And as for there being no atheist organisation or movement, well.... List of secularist organizations - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    I didn't say there were no atheist organizations only that there is none in my life. The militant atheists you know are the most vocal ones. Then there are a lot of people like me, calmly living their lives without it being a big deal one way or the other.

    And knowing that believing in fairy tales is not for me does not make me closed minded. What is wrong with trusting my own knowledge?

  4. #114
    eKatherine's Avatar
    eKatherine is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Portland
    Posts
    5,424
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumifer View Post
    An atheist answers a question "Is there a god?" with "No". An agnostic answers the same question with "I don't know". These are meaningfully different answers. The fact that both of them are different from "Yes" does not make them the same.
    What is often the case is that whether a person self-identifies as an "atheist" or "agnostic" is more a matter of appearance than substance of their views. Agnostics get less hatred than atheists, and some people are not comfortable getting sucked into the debate that so often ensues when a theist finds out you're an atheist.

  5. #115
    Lumifer's Avatar
    Lumifer is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    116
    Quote Originally Posted by ciep View Post
    The problem is simply that we're using different definitions. This is a common problem
    True :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by ciep View Post
    Language is slippery.
    Also true and I count this as a good thing. Makes internet discussions slippery little things, it does :-D

  6. #116
    Lumifer's Avatar
    Lumifer is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    116
    Quote Originally Posted by eKatherine View Post
    What is often the case is that whether a person self-identifies as an "atheist" or "agnostic" is more a matter of appearance than substance of their views. Agnostics get less hatred than atheists, and some people are not comfortable getting sucked into the debate that so often ensues when a theist finds out you're an atheist.
    Well, kinda. Yes, in some places being an atheist is... not socially acceptable :-/ and that influences self-identification.

    I still think that the two answers "No" and "I don't know" are very different.

  7. #117
    ciep's Avatar
    ciep is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Barneveld, NY
    Posts
    533
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumifer View Post
    I still think that the two answers "No" and "I don't know" are very different.
    Agreed completely. Which is why it's probably often better to just say what we mean instead of trying to apply labels that may be taken the wrong way.

    And +1 also to eKatherine.

    Good stuff guys, thanks for the discussion.

  8. #118
    Gorbag's Avatar
    Gorbag is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Ecuador
    Posts
    3,849
    If a God should turn out to exist as he is portrayed in the bible, or as the maker of the mercyless Nature, well then I must say that I am against him anyway...

  9. #119
    cayla29s's Avatar
    cayla29s is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    456
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Bork Bork View Post
    IMO, grain was probably better for you back in those days than it is today. Even 200 years ago, you went out to the field, sowed your own grain, watered it, harvested it, ground it into flour, and then made awesome stuffs with it. These days they plant GMO seeds, spray chemicals all over it, harvest it, grind it into dust, and turn it into bread-like substances. Go back 2000 years, and Jesus had the really good stuff. We don't.
    Also unleavened bread (what he probably ate and related himself to) was made differently than what we think of as bread today.
    Yes! The book Wheat Belly talks about this. I take communion and I don't see a big deal with consuming a tiny bit of wheat once a week. It's the spiritual association with it that matters.

  10. #120
    JoanieL's Avatar
    JoanieL is offline Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    It's not the heat, it's the stupidity.
    Posts
    7,386
    The biggest bummer about being an atheist is that we don't have any cool holidays. Also, I really miss stained glass, but I do get my fix occasionally by seeing any interesting Catholic churches or cathedrals in cities that I visit.
    "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

    B*tch-lite

    Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

Page 12 of 33 FirstFirst ... 2101112131422 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •