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Thread: Insulin and hypoglycemia - VLC vs PHD page

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    Future_PB_Dr's Avatar
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    Insulin and hypoglycemia - VLC vs PHD

    Primal Fuel
    Okay, I have a question for you science folk to ponder.

    I listened to a podcast today, Jimmy Moore's LLVLC, in which he was speaking of his experience with hypoglycemia after a long stint of a VLC WOE. His postprandial glucose was lower than his fasting blood glucose despite ingesting VLC meals.

    This made me begin to make connections in my head, not answers, but connections. I next thought of another podcast I had listened to a couple weeks back, "The Fat Burning Man" featuring host Abel James and Paul Jaminet, author of The Perfect Health Diet (PHD). Jaminet stated (I am going off memory) something along the lines of it being necessary to stimulate insulin so that your cells remain sensitive and know how to deal with glucose.

    And this brought me to my question, could VLC eating lead to hypoglycemia because the gluconeogenesis derived glucose causes the glucose spike in your blood, but your body, over time, doesn't know how to deal with the glucose? I understand the flaw in this question: protein intake will always lead to gluconeogenesis and raised blood glucose and thus insulin secretion. Yet, I am just curious if the body becomes deficient in its ability to deal with blood sugar spikes from gluconeogenesis due to VLC eating over time?

    What are your thoughts?

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    If you are in ketosis for an extremely long period of time and then suddenly try to ingest a large helping of carbohydrates, you MIGHT have this problem.

    In my opinion however, gluconeogenesis should be more than enough to keep your insluin attuned to what it can do. By the way, insulin is also necessary in helping protein reach your muscles to maintain muscle mass, so even in the total absence of carbs, it will be released for that if nothing else.
    Last edited by Drumroll; 03-26-2013 at 07:43 PM.

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    I include (some) carbs for thyroid function. I was getting cold hands/feet and was depressed when vlc.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

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    Jimmy Moore's metabolism seems to be so damaged that I wouldn't extrapolate his experiences to those of most people. I don't know that I agree with it being "necessary to stimulate insulin so that your cells remain sensitive and know how to deal with glucose". Ketosis is perfectly natural and safe metabolic state but if you're worried about it have the occasional high carb day if you want. I'm sure our ancestors would have gorged on an abundance of fruit or honey when they had the chance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    I include (some) carbs for thyroid function. I was getting cold hands/feet and was depressed when vlc.
    I had the same problem about 4-6 weeks into it. I was also sluggish, sleepy (think narcoleptic sleepy, it was bad!) after meals and put on 3 pounds eating at 1600-1800 cals.

    I was able to check my post meal blood sugars that day. The highest one was 114 after eating a small portion of rice at lunch. The rest were below 100. In fact, breakfast was a post sugar of 90 after a huge protein breakfast. ( I checked it one hour and two hour post meal.)

    I am not hypo thyroid at all. Or at least I wasn't 6 weeks ago. I have read on several forums and several blogs that women get this a lot more than men.

    Once I added some primal carbs in at 100-125g ( The PHD diet) a day the symptoms reversed. I have had two days this week with much higher carbs, not by chocie, just worked out that way. I still have the extra weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 0Angel0 View Post
    Jimmy Moore's metabolism seems to be so damaged that I wouldn't extrapolate his experiences to those of most people. I don't know that I agree with it being "necessary to stimulate insulin so that your cells remain sensitive and know how to deal with glucose". Ketosis is perfectly natural and safe metabolic state but if you're worried about it have the occasional high carb day if you want. I'm sure our ancestors would have gorged on an abundance of fruit or honey when they had the chance.
    Angel, I myself do not fall into a VLC woe. My macros are 50:30:20 fat, carbs, protein. I was just curious to know if there was any type of biological mechanism that would cause hypoglycemia as a consequence of VLC eating. And I am right with you on the gorging of fruit and honey. I myself feel that it probably occurred more than many on this forum believe.

    Magicmerl, how long was it before you added in carbs after initially going VLC? How long did it take your symptoms of cold hands/feet and depression to arise after going VLC?

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    Quote Originally Posted by magicmerl View Post
    I include (some) carbs for thyroid function. I was getting cold hands/feet and was depressed when vlc.
    This was me as well, not to mention my hair was falling out in clumps and I had bad digestive issues. I follow PHD now. I was VLC/keto for close to a year and I couldn't do it anymore. I've listened to that podcast as well as a few others with Paul and have heard him mention that as well, and that in some cases people who are VLC/keto sometimes have higher blood glucose levels compared to someone with a higher (not high in a CW sense, but higher than VLC) carb consumption. I guess this may be an indication of a higher rate of gluconeogenesis? Not too well versed in this but that's my 2 cents.

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    Ketones are protective, ketosis is a metabolic stress. The stimulation of gluconeogenesis is the product of a stress hormone. You don't have to eat very high carb like I do, but for health issues, I wouldn't advise anyone to sustain prolonged ketosis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    Ketones are protective, ketosis is a metabolic stress. The stimulation of gluconeogenesis is the product of a stress hormone. You don't have to eat very high carb like I do, but for health issues, I wouldn't advise anyone to sustain prolonged ketosis.
    Is hypoglycemia often accompanied by adrenal fatigue? I would imagine it would be stressful on your adrenal cortex and medulla to be releasing cortisol and epi so often to stimulate gluconeogenesis. Could this adrenal fatigue be related to hypoglycemia? Perhaps your adrenal glands become so fatigued that they are no longer able to efficiently stimulate gluconeogenesis (through hormones), so the same insulin release in response to a meal will be directing the same amount of gluconeogenesis-derived glucose into your cells, but from a smaller pool of this glucose, thus leading to less in your bloodstream, ala hypoglycemia. Does this sound like a probable mechanism? I am just thinking out loud.

    Edit: I guess a better first question would be: is adrenal fatigue often accompanied by hypoglycemia?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Future_PB_Dr View Post
    Is hypoglycemia often accompanied by adrenal fatigue? I would imagine it would be stressful on your adrenal cortex and medulla to be releasing cortisol and epi so often to stimulate gluconeogenesis. Could this adrenal fatigue be related to hypoglycemia? Perhaps your adrenal glands become so fatigued that they are no longer able to efficiently stimulate gluconeogenesis (through hormones), so the same insulin release in response to a meal will be directing the same amount of gluconeogenesis-derived glucose into your cells, but from a smaller pool of this glucose, thus leading to less in your bloodstream, ala hypoglycemia. Does this sound like a probable mechanism? I am just thinking out loud.

    Edit: I guess a better first question would be: is adrenal fatigue often accompanied by hypoglycemia?
    Derp isn't the one to ask about adrenal fatigue. He doesn't believe in it.

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