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Thread: What to tell those who claim being vegan is "heart healthy"? page 6

  1. #51
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    Vegan diets aren't necessarily low fat... there are plenty of fats that don't come from animal products... And it's not necessarily high carb, though it's probably higher carb than the diets of most people here. If a person feels really strongly about something (i.e. animal rights), it's probably good for their heart (in the sense of the heart as not only a physical pump but an emotional organ) to avoid animal products. There are studies that show emotional pain triggers the same autonomic response as physical pain. Good health is about more than diet, in other words--it's about receiving love and avoiding pain. Most of the animals whose flesh/milk/eggs are consumed by humans live lives rich in emotional and physical pain. Yes, there are more humanely raised animals, but the vast majority of them live in sheer torture. By eating them, we're packing our bodies with tissue imbued with cortisol, sadness, stress, adrenaline, pain... A scientist might not be able to quantify that, but it's something to think about.

    Chances are you won't convince a vegan their diet isn't heart healthy and they won't be able to convince you yours isn't. But a person with a "healthy" outlook doesn't base his or her happiness on whether or not he/she can convince others of being right. So you may be trying to "save" your vegan friends, they may be trying to save you, but in the end we're all going to make mistakes, learn from them, tweak our approaches for better results... Basing my food choices on things I read (books, articles, study results, etc.) wasn't making me happy--just confused, stressed, indecisive, all very emotionally unhealthy places to be. (I should clarify, cutting things from my diet that I enjoyed was making me unhappy. I have had a lot of fun reading to learn about things to add, i.e. brazil nuts, kelp). The healthy heart might be free of saturated fat, might be free of grains, but it definitely needs to be free of guilt, regret, doubt, etc. and for some people, avoiding animal products to the extent they can is the only way to avoid those guilty feelings... This post was a little bit rambling, but my main point is that physical health isn't the only component of heart health.
    Last edited by 2ndChance; 03-22-2013 at 09:18 AM.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndChance View Post
    There are studies that show emotional pain triggers the same autonomic response as physical pain. Good health is about more than diet, in other words--it's about receiving love and avoiding pain. Most of the animals whose flesh/milk/eggs are consumed by humans live lives rich in emotional and physical pain. Yes, there are more humanely raised animals, but the vast majority of them live in sheer torture. By eating them, we're packing our bodies with tissue imbued with cortisol, sadness, stress, adrenaline, pain... A scientist might not be able to quantify that, but it's something to think about........
    ........ The healthy heart might be free of saturated fat, might be free of grains, but it definitely needs to be free of guilt, regret, doubt, etc. and for some people, avoiding animal products to the extent they can is the only way to avoid those guilty feelings... This post was a little bit rambling, but my main point is that physical health isn't the only component of heart health.
    I agree that emotional health is just as important as diet, but the primary issue with the Vegan Philosophy is that it is a philosophy and selective science is used to try to justify this, if this is your choice because the emotional pain you feel with eating animal products is just too much for you to bear, then that's fine, but trying to create emotional science arguments to justify it as the healthiest way of life is just outright dogmatic.

    Have you ever watched nature, does a bird ask the worm how it's feeling, does it want to be eaten, or seen a cat toy with a mouse for ages before finally killing it, seen orcas playing catch with a seal, hyenas tear apart a gazelle etc, etc, it is the way of the world, the human spiritual construct of consuming the sadness and pain of animals is counterbalanced by primitive beliefs that suggest eating an animal imbues you with the spiritual vitality of that animal.
    What makes the Vegan ideal any more valid than primitive peoples who were much more in tune with their environment and the earth which provides them with life?

    We are physiologically adapted to hunting and eating animals, that's just the way it is, if you choose not to then that's fine, justify it as your spiritual direction, why is there a need to prove it with science? Surely the angst involved in trying to constantly come up with shaky arguments to justify your way of life is not good for your emotional health, one can find peace within themselves more easily if you can accept that others may have a different belief stream.

    You don't see the Paleo community criticising Budhist monks for being Vegan or Vegetarian because for them it is clearly a fundamental spiritual belief and science is irrelevant, the only reason there is argument between the two communities is that Vegans more often than not try to use selective science to further their cause. Although sometimes even in the Paleo community I have seen argument on who is more right, healthy debate sometimes, can become dogmatic as well. I found it quite amusing to read through a discussion of raw foodies using shaky science to criticise fruitarians for using even shakier science.

    I did read through quite a bit on many diet types all the way from Fruitarians through to Inuit style and after all this decided that a mixed Paleo style diet allowed the greatest margin of error to maintain good health and haven't seen any good evidence yet to convince me otherwise.
    Last edited by Omni; 03-22-2013 at 02:52 PM.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    Dunno, I just saw Atkins and assumed the worst. Honestly, I haven't really read this thread. Saturated fat is definitely protective of the heart though.
    Hah all good when I see Atkins I normally assume the worst too lol.
    "If man made it, don't eat it" - Jack Lallane

    People say I am on a "crazy" diet. What is so crazy about eating veggies, fruits, seafood and organ meats? Just because I don't eat whole wheat and processed food doesn't make my diet "crazy". Maybe everyone else with a SAD are the "crazy" ones for putting that junk in their system.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbiter View Post
    All the vegans I've met have looked like shit. The dudes are weesh and sickly, the women either fat or stick-thin. Also, I have a sneaking suspicion that I, eating a primal diet, actually polish off more vegetables in a week than do many of these vegans.

    "My lifestyle guru can beat up your lifestyle guru" would be my response, not scientific citations.
    Harsh but I agree to some extent. But you have to remember that most vegans don't do it for their looks, most of the vegans I know have serious problems eating animal products and I am cool with that. My wife is a vegetarian, she knows her diet is not optimal because it is lacking certain things a plant based diet cannot provide easily. But she loves animals so much that she has a mental block eating meat. She does have eggs and dairy though which I am thankful for. My wife actually looks fantastic and has never been overweight, but then again she is not a vegan and the eggs/dairy she consumes helps in some of the areas where she may be deficient otherwise. The best part of it is she does not try to lecture me on eating meat. She is convinced it is healthy to consume it. We buy all of our meat from local farmers instead of going the conventional route. She will even cook for me or her dad even though she doesn't taste what she is cooking lol.
    "If man made it, don't eat it" - Jack Lallane

    People say I am on a "crazy" diet. What is so crazy about eating veggies, fruits, seafood and organ meats? Just because I don't eat whole wheat and processed food doesn't make my diet "crazy". Maybe everyone else with a SAD are the "crazy" ones for putting that junk in their system.

  5. #55
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    I would say EVERY cause uses "selective science" to justify it... Modern (wealthy) humans are different from birds, snakes, etc. because we have the choice what we eat, we don't have to kill whatever wanders into our path to survive. It depends how you see modern humans' place in the world, really, are we bone-ripping killers or are we more like cows, wandering around not exerting much energy, eating grass... I personally see myself closer to the latter, given my life is not extremely active and my calorie requirements are low. There's a difference between Grok's life--exerting lots of energy while chasing down a wild (not man-raised) animal then naturally needing to eat the animal flesh to replenish what was spent in the chase--and ours. We sit at desks all day and pay other people to raise and slaughter animals where we don't have to see any of it. I've also heard (on NOVA or something) that ancient humans were more of scavengers than hunters, scraping meat off bones here and there when they could, only after the real bone-crushers had finished, but otherwise subsisting on mostly plants.

    Edit- Take the example of eating bacon every day, that would be extremely unrealistic, given that would mean you found and successfully slaughtered multiple wild pigs, yet only ate one specific part of their body... I'm not trying to say everyone shouldn't eat meat, but that we don't need to eat a lot of ANYTHING, because most of us don't really have to DO much. Some of us choose to expend lots of extra calories for no real reason, but that's a choice, a choice that wouldn't really be wise in Grok's time, since having extra energy on hand for potential emergencies would be desired.
    Last edited by 2ndChance; 03-22-2013 at 03:01 PM.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2ndChance View Post
    I would say EVERY cause uses "selective science" to justify it... Modern (wealthy) humans are different from birds, snakes, etc. because we have the choice what we eat, we don't have to kill whatever wanders into our path to survive. It depends how you see modern humans' place in the world, really, are we bone-ripping killers or are we more like cows, wandering around not exerting much energy, eating grass... I personally see myself closer to the latter, given my life is not extremely active and my calorie requirements are low. There's a difference between Grok's life--exerting lots of energy while chasing down a wild (not man-raised) animal then naturally needing to eat the animal flesh to replenish what was spent in the chase--and ours. We sit at desks all day and pay other people to raise and slaughter animals where we don't have to see any of it. I've also heard (on NOVA or something) that ancient humans were more of scavengers than hunters, scraping meat off bones here and there when they could, only after the real bone-crushers had finished, but otherwise subsisting on mostly plants.

    Edit- Take the example of eating bacon every day, that would be extremely unrealistic, given that would mean you found and successfully slaughtered multiple wild pigs, yet only ate one specific part of their body... I'm not trying to say everyone shouldn't eat meat, but that we don't need to eat a lot of ANYTHING, because most of us don't really have to DO much. Some of us choose to expend lots of extra calories for no real reason, but that's a choice, a choice that wouldn't really be wise in Grok's time, since having extra energy on hand for potential emergencies would be desired.
    The biggest difference between modern humans and other creatures is we have distanced ourselves from our environment and hence have lost our connection with the land and what life is really about, in doing so we have created too much time to contemplate our navel and come up with bizzare abstract theories.
    I don't see my self as the cow, I am more inclined to kill and eat the cow and yes I have done this my self with smaller livestock, but always in a humane way as I can and I have a spiritual element in the process as well, I made this choice early in life in that if I wasn't prepared to kill them maybe I shouldn't eat them, so I am ok with eating meat.

    If you really want to start quoting the evolutionary path of humans, then spend a few weeks looking at all the evidence and see what conclusions you come up with, I did and found that the most probable result is that over the span of 6-12 million years we gradually increased our intake of animal products, but were never Vegan during that time frame, even chimps which are readily quoted by vegans are not vegan!

  7. #57
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    I think the fact that we have so many choices now in modern times is actually leading to our demise. If we had to only live off what the land provided, be it fruits/vegetables/animals, we would be much better off and most likely less populated. During winter months when crops freeze, you may not have any other choice than to live off what an animal can provide you. Our bodies have evolved doing so. Unfortunately it has not evolved to the point of eating processed junk with artificual colors and chemicals (although some people would argue that we have). Obviously we can't go back in time, we are now modernized and have to deal with it.
    "If man made it, don't eat it" - Jack Lallane

    People say I am on a "crazy" diet. What is so crazy about eating veggies, fruits, seafood and organ meats? Just because I don't eat whole wheat and processed food doesn't make my diet "crazy". Maybe everyone else with a SAD are the "crazy" ones for putting that junk in their system.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legbiter View Post
    All the vegans I've met have looked like shit. The dudes are weesh and sickly, the women either fat or stick-thin.
    Wasn't Michael Stipe from REM a vegi? That guy needs some MEAT for sure...

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    Pritikin had no known history of depression and was doing well right up until the late stages of his leukemia, which he kept in remission for over 20 years. I'm sure there's many that feel depressed on his diet, but I'm sure you'll find just as many or more on low carb diets. Dr atkins had heart disease and hypertension when he died.
    Talking about Pritikin is a moot point since he was never a vegetarian much less a vegan.

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