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  1. #1391
    diene's Avatar
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    I'm always amazed by your ability to be brutally honest. And, as you can see, everyone loves you. Like nameless, I hope to meet you in real life one day cuz I think you're awesome.

    I'll respond more about rage (I'm an expert on that ), marital arts, and therapy tomorrow. I'm drunk right now and on my phone. And autocorrect is not my friend.

    Sent from my LG-VM696 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app

  2. #1392
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    You guys are so unbelievably sweet. I went to bed after I wrote all that, feeling pretty embarrassed, and not expecting anyone to reply to my ramblings. I don't want to be this annoying person who just vents on MDA and then people feel obligated to reply...

    So I was really pleasantly surprised to wake up this morning and find what you all had written. Honestly, thank you.

    Just want to clarify that I probably sound in worse shape than I actually am. I don't feel remotely depressed... it's just that a layer has lifted from my eyes, and I'm seeing with more honesty. It's raw, and as I said: I don't really know where to go from here. I feel frustrated yes, but I don't feel desperate or lost.

    Quote Originally Posted by namelesswonder View Post
    I was going to suggest boxing or something like that. [[hugs]] again because you do deserve them. I hope we meet someday because you sound like an amazing person.
    Thanks Tasha <3 And likewise. Hopefully I'll be living in the States some day and we can all organise a Gummibear meet up

    Quote Originally Posted by brooke.S. View Post
    Hey YogaBare, I'm glad you have this forum as an outlet. When I read your writings, sometimes I can see me in your how you describe yourself. You are very good at expressing your feelings through your words. I don't really know what to say except... I understand.
    It was strange, but as I was writing, I suddenly realised that many people would understand. I did think of you, and a post you made on Gray's journal recently about your weight. Maybe most people have this deep sense of inadequacy, but for whatever reasons, with me it is close to the surface.

    Thanks for connecting. I appreciate our contact!

    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    Hey, Yo, when you come to California, I'll actually give you a hug and we can talk about feels together.

    I think a lot of people have problems just letting go, for whatever reason. It's obsession that makes us all miserable. Obsession to please others, ourselves, to find an answer to everything, even if it's looking in nothing.

    It's sad, because, I told you before, you have a lovely face, and the smile you wear on it only accentuates that. So, smile more friend. Even if you think you can't find anything to smile about, make it a habit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    It's sad how self-absorbed people are too.
    I look forward to our chats Derp

    You're right. I want to be less obsessed and neurotic, but I don't know how. I think a big thing to help me would be getting away from the computer, as it makes it too easy for me to be anti-social, self absorbed, and wrapped up in my head. It takes a lot of will to live a balanced life...

    And thank you. You're too sweet.

    Quote Originally Posted by Graycat View Post
    Hey Yoga, I'm not that good with words, so I wanna echo what they all said.

    You are one beautiful person inside and out, and you have helped me personally tons!
    Thank you, friend!!!

    Be as nice to yourself as you are to everyone else, okay?

    I totally did not get the upside down stick figure = OK, but that's ok. No need to explain.
    Aw Gray, thanks for saying that! And it means a lot to know that some of what I say helps.

    Oops - I said the wrong thing: sideways stick figure! Turn your head on its side and you'll see a stick man: OK


    Quote Originally Posted by ombat View Post
    I think this some of the best advice I've heard for you in a while (not that everyone's advice isn't valuable).

    You treat everyone with such thoughtfulness, patience, and kindness, but not yourself. I don't know how else to phrase this but.... you aren't special. None of us are, I mean. I'm not special and neither is anyone else on this forum or in this universe so why do you treat yourself like you're so different? Why don't you deserve the same kindness and respect that you clearly think everyone else deserves?

    (You know I like to play the rough card)
    Yes Batman, and that's why I love you

    I don't know. It's ingrained into me that I have to be perfect. That involves being all of those things to other people, but because I am never perfect I believe don't deserve it for myself. ANd then I attract people into my life who also don't believe I deserve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by diene View Post
    I'm always amazed by your ability to be brutally honest. And, as you can see, everyone loves you. Like nameless, I hope to meet you in real life one day cuz I think you're awesome.

    I'll respond more about rage (I'm an expert on that ), marital arts, and therapy tomorrow. I'm drunk right now and on my phone. And autocorrect is not my friend.
    You're one person on here who I'm sure I'll meet in the flesh... when we both live in CA again

    Thanks Di. I hope you know how much I appreciated your message yesterday. Do write more. And thanks for sharing all the stuff about your ED yesterday: I'm sorry I didn't reply to that in detail but your insight (about never overcoming it) is interesting. That was kind of the revelation that I had: that I had removed the behaviours, but the inner cause was still there, and the ED is just a trigger for me to eject all the pain and frustration I feel with the world.

    This talk feels good though, and I feel like the brutal honesty helps more than anything.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  3. #1393
    diene's Avatar
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    Hey, don't worry about responding to my post. It was mostly me rambling anyway. Just some personal observations based on my own inability to fully recover and my observations of friends who have had EDs and who also appear to be unable to fully recover.

  4. #1394
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    Quote Originally Posted by diene View Post
    Hey, don't worry about responding to my post. It was mostly me rambling anyway. Just some personal observations based on my own inability to fully recover and my observations of friends who have had EDs and who also appear to be unable to fully recover.
    I do know two women who I believe made full recoveries from anorexia. They are both still really thin though, so idk...

    My sister and me had similar EDs, but hers was more severe. I was borderline anorexic, she was full blown. I was a chronic BEDer with occasional purges, she was full blown bulimic. So in our cases we both swung each way. I honestly don't know if she's recovered either.

    I really recommend reading some of the ED posts on Bodybuilder.com. They broke my heart a little bit. And most of them are from men! This is the one that really made me realise that this is an internal problem:

    Quote Originally Posted by MyBlackDog View Post
    Hello everyone.

    I have been reading this thread (including the first version that reached its post limit) for over a year, and now I finally have the confidence to make an entry of my own.

    I read posts by determined, erik, etc. almost every night before I go to sleep, and you guys have indirectly been a VERY big help – so I hope I can open up a line of communication with you gentlemen to help me out.

    Here’s my current situation:

    Every day I wake, my mind is immediately filled with swarming thoughts about exercise and food. If I can them to calm down, and that’s a big IF, it is inevitable that I will be overwhelmed with depression before mid-day.

    A trip to the kitchen to make food, a glance at a restaurant menu, or a stroll through the aisles of whole foods floods my body with anxiety. I was able to put up with this process for about a year, but with this upcoming winter hitting the 5-year mark, I have become a zombie.

    I have minimal interests outside of those generated by body/muscle dysmorphia or restrictive eating patterns. Every day I reinvent my particular style of eating.

    Every. Day.

    That means – I will eat a lot more or a lot less. I will eliminate fruit, starchy carbohydrates, or fats. I will eat within a specific window of time. I will eat at certain times of the day. I will not eat at certain times of the day. I will avoid situations in which I will/will not be able to eat. I will go out of my way to buy/not buy particular types of food.

    Food and exercise become ritualized. Ritualized to the point that if something is interrupted or changed in even the slightest manner, I will (quite literally) feel overcome by my anxieties and shut down, from head to toe. Every fiber of my being will be diverted to a ‘damage control’ type of scenario, where I will attempt to flee the current setting as fast as possible… All based on invented eating, sleeping, or exercise patterns. This repetitive cycle keeps me distant from social settings or from even the slightest hint of productivity at work.

    Exercise and strength training have become burdens. They are routines that have become mandatory in my life, forcing me to shoulder anxious thoughts if I attempt to divert my consciousness away from exercise.

    Thus, the seesaw teeters between anorexia athletica and restrictive eating.

    This process never lets me feel relaxed or free from stress, as I always have an illusion of needing to be somewhere else – the gym, the grocery store, in bed, cooking, eating, not eating.

    Lately, my depressed states have been forcing me into isolation and constant introspection. I don’t want to talk to coworkers, visit friends, or even think of spending time with family members. Most days, when I return to my apartment, I feel so stressed that my entire body hurts and I cannot keep my eyes open.

    Over the last few of years, I’ve regressed from a very strong 180-190 [225x18 rep bench press, 375x1 deadlift], to a slightly skinny fat 160-165. I am constantly hungry, but my obviously my ED tells me how much food I’ve eaten is appropriate, not my hunger cues. I can rarely get through lifts nowadays because I program-hop and eat too little, too frequently.

    Bodybuilding/strength training was once the largest joy in my life, something I wish to rediscover.

    I hope you guys on this forum can offer me some support, direction, and guidelines for training/eating.

    I am open to all instruction, and will follow assistance to the ‘T’ if it is offered.

    Thank you for your time - I appreciate every single second anyone may take to help me out.

    PS: To all those in a similar situation – keep grinding and just ask for help.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  5. #1395
    diene's Avatar
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    Man, you ever wonder what is wrong with this world that people develop eating disorders? Isn't it the strangest thing?

    Mixed anorexics/bulimics are interesting because the two disorders are so different from each other that usually the people who are prone to develop one versus the other have very different personalities. If you and your sister both had similar EDs, except hers is more severe, do you think some aspect of your upbringing contributed to it?

    When I was really struggling with bulimia, I used to want to open up a clinic to help people with EDs. But now I just want to open up a clinic to help drug addicts, in part, cuz I think EDs are too difficult to treat. I wouldn't know how to do it. But I have a whole method figured out for overcoming substance dependence.

    What about that post made you think that it's an internal problem?

  6. #1396
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    Quote Originally Posted by diene View Post
    Man, you ever wonder what is wrong with this world that people develop eating disorders? Isn't it the strangest thing?

    Mixed anorexics/bulimics are interesting because the two disorders are so different from each other that usually the people who are prone to develop one versus the other have very different personalities. If you and your sister both had similar EDs, except hers is more severe, do you think some aspect of your upbringing contributed to it?

    When I was really struggling with bulimia, I used to want to open up a clinic to help people with EDs. But now I just want to open up a clinic to help drug addicts, in part, cuz I think EDs are too difficult to treat. I wouldn't know how to do it. But I have a whole method figured out for overcoming substance dependence.

    What about that post made you think that it's an internal problem?
    Interesting question. I do believe it's a mix of hormonal and psychological issues. When I read that guy's post and I saw how much pain and self hatred were masked behind his words, I just thought wow - this can't just be a nutritional deficiency. Sure, you can become half insane from calorific restriction, but how do you get to that point? Chicken or egg?

    Psychologically, it could be a form of escape. Like many addictions are to escape from internal stress through activity, but hormonally, the substance's ability to physically alleviate the stress hormones and bring relief is also addictive. You can literally get high from food (if you eat the right / wrong stuff).

    And more on psychology: then there is the control thing. Kind of sliding back into restricting mode is reminding me how good it feels to actually have control over something in my life. And times when I've felt really out of control (like after I was raped - wrote about it back very early in the journal), I went completely insane with binging. Not as bad as I was in Dec/Jan of this year though

    I actually read an interesting article stating that anorexics tend to have very high levels of seretonin, which contributes to the appetite suppression etc. You can read about it here - don't know how accurate it is, but it's pretty interesting: The Science Behind Eating Disorders

    My sister is a psychologist, and she has a mini-library of books about EDs, all of which Ive read Many, many anorexics go through bulimic phases: particularly if they are anorexic for quite a few years. Or they will self harm or something. And similarly, bulimics can go through long periods of deprivation where they can drop a lot of weight, but they often do it using some kind of external aid, like diet pills.

    I wish I knew what went wrong with my family and food. My mum is naturally thin, and doesn't eat much. Think of a Frech woman: that's my mum. My dad gorges himself at every single meal. He's physically addicted to junk food, and also uses food to push down emotions. My sister was a chubby child, so my mum put her on a diet age two. She always had hang ups about her weight, and became bulimic age 16. She started puking in front of me. Ugh. She always made comments about my weight (how thin I was). She was completely obsessed with thoughts of being fat. When I was 17 I changed schools, stopped exercising, and put on some weight. I went from 112 lbs to a whopping 116. But that was the start of worrying about my weight. I always aimed to be that 112 lbs. Then I fell in love, lost loads of weight, went to 110 lbs, and got offered a modelling contract. Became vegetarian, and started to binge. My weight vacillated wildly over the next 13 years. Last time I was 112 lbs I was 28. Remember I'm 5'8 as well.

    WEirdly whenever my sister gains weight, my mum still comments on it, even though my sister has sustained a very-thin weight for longer than me. Any time I lose weight, everyone starts telling me I'm too thin. It's weird.

    So I guess it's a mix of upbringing, ingrained thinking patterns, and then sent over the edge by crazy diets.

    Anyway... sorry for the life story!!

    Oh, finally: that's so weird, but I really wanted to open a clinic to help ED people too! (this is when I thought I'd recovered ) What's your idea for drug rehab?
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  7. #1397
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    I forgot how eating, can be as difficult as not binging.

    I woke up and had lost an inch of water weight from my hips. It felt great. I wasn't hungry, and did a workout fasted. Eventually I forced myself to eat an egg, but I drank some juice and my stomach blew up with it. Then all day I got whiffs of meat, and I decided I needed to eat, and it would be a burger. I bought a veal chop too, and cooked them both, but as they were cooking, the yoga guy called me, and by the time we got off the phone I was so excited / highly strung / anxious that I stuffed the whole burger and half of the veal chop into my gob before I knew where it was gone. It was probably a good thing, but then I felt so, so guilty, which is not good!

    This is a lot about control. I feel out of control = I binge, I am desperate to maintain some kind of control = I starve. Right now I don't want to eat tomorrow, because I feel powerful when I starve, and I feel weak when I eat. God, it's sick I'm not any closer to figuring this out really.

    But, badger girl, I am definitely going to try a martial art! I think it will help me channel my aggression into reality.

    In other news, I went on date two with the Chilean guy last night. It was an agonising experience I kind of knew I wasn't going to like him, but he'd been texting me incessantly since the date, and I didn't feel it would be honourable to cancel on him. We hung out for three hours, and I actually felt sick at the thought of what was to come, cos I had a feeling it would be bad. And it was. In the end he asked me out again, and I had to tell him that there was no spark. The walk back to the village took a lifetime (most of it was in silence) and when we said goodbye I actually thought he was going to cry. That probably makes him sound like a loser, but he wasn't: I just got the feeling that this kept happening to him, and he couldn't bear it any more. I feel so bad, because I'm also stuck in the cycle of being single, and it gets to the point where it starts being traumatic. You're constantly breaking up with people / getting rejected / going through the initial, stressful phases of relationships. Ugh. This is why I hate dating!
    Last edited by YogaBare; 07-24-2013 at 03:49 PM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  8. #1398
    ombat's Avatar
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    You may be familiar with the Buddhist proverb: pain is inevitable; suffering is optional.

    Ack I squirm thinking about your uncomfortable experience with the Chilean guy. It's so... deflating. But it sounds like something good might be going on with Yoga guy?
    Is it weird in here, or is it just me?

  9. #1399
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    Hey guys, Would love your advice!

    I'm thinking of signing up to this course. It would give me a basic nutritional qualification that would enable me to work in health food stores, with qualified nutritionalists etc. It teaches CW but whatever! It might be useful to have under the belt, particularly if I move to CA. Thoughts?
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  10. #1400
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    How universal is the course? Is that a respected certification if you moved to the US?

    On EDs: I have my own small experience with disordered eating, though I would never say I had an ED (it amuses me that this is also the acronym for erectile dysfunction). I read back through an old online community earlier this year and found myself lamenting being up to 108 lbs at 5'5" or 5'6". This is still plenty tiny (which is why I'm so horrified at your 112 lbs at your height). I was just a teenager, still developing, and had always been thin. I let go of that after a while, but the feeling of control from not eating is one I'm somewhat familiar with, though I never starved much. I self-injured. My sister had (has? is recovering from? she's vegan and I honestly believe that she will never fully recover as long as she remains that way) anorexia. She's 5'5" and got down to around 90 lbs at one point. She self-injured too, but I don't think for as long or as much. She was hospitalized in her early 20s when her hair started falling out, she was living off of sun butter, and she was basically malnourished. We don't talk about it. I don't think she'd be comfortable talking about it either. I know she still has plenty of body image issues. She struggles with depression a lot, but is on meds & goes to semi-regular therapy. I still have my own body image issues, but I think they're pretty normal. I still decided to ban the scale for the rest of the year though. I want to disassociate my measure of health from numbers. I see myself as fatter than I am. We don't even have a full-length mirror and I think it should stay that way.

    My best friend in high school was anorexic, though not ever underweight. She had all the thoughts and actions, but struggled to lose weight. She now runs a pretty successful paleo site and is publishing a book this fall, on top of running her own wedding photography business. I'd say she's recovered, but we haven't seen each other much in the past several years. I can see how one could use the framework of a paleo diet, like any diet, to control their body in a negative way. Maybe this is healthier, because it at least encourages appropriate nutritional intake & exercise, if you don't go overboard with either.

    I don't know how to approach supporting someone dealing with an ED. I know the irrational thoughts and feelings in my own way, but I know there's nothing I can say that will really make a difference. It has to come from within. Talking and encouraging talking is the only thing that I know can help.

    Hopefully this is not an unwelcome question for any reason: have you sought counselling?
    Journal on depression/anxiety
    Currently trying to figure out WTF to eat (for IBS-C).

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