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  1. #11
    Reindeer's Avatar
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    Primal Fuel
    I checked over the training/eating regimen of the guys who played the Spartans in 300. What they did to achieve that ridiculous physique was to enter a form of starvation mode to emulate the high level of physical exercise, combined with not really eating enough, that the actual spartan soldiers would've experienced. They stayed just on their lower limit of how many calories they needed individually - for months of training. Tough nuts.

    I reckon that in a guy, a well defined six pack and the likes would've been a primal indicator that, hey, this is one hard to crack guy - he have survived periods of starvation and still have some actual muscle, so most likely he's an able guy.

    Plus, it's pretty silly to think that women will judge a potential mate from a definite set of standards. There's also the psychology - the whole 'looks like my dad' thing, or whether they live in a forested area where food is common but must be fought for vs. a savannah or desert area where you'd have to walk long distances, aka the strength vs. endurance thing.
    Last edited by Reindeer; 03-15-2013 at 02:08 AM.

  2. #12
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    Chinese proverb: thin women for looking at, fat women for lying on.

    As a 64 year old male with much varied experience in that field, being of the flower power generation I would concur with the above.

  3. #13
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reindeer View Post
    I checked over the training/eating regimen of the guys who played the Spartans in 300. What they did to achieve that ridiculous physique was to enter a form of starvation mode to emulate the high level of physical exercise, combined with not really eating enough, that the actual spartan soldiers would've experienced. They stayed just on their lower limit of how many calories they needed individually - for months of training. Tough nuts.

    I reckon that in a guy, a well defined six pack and the likes would've been a primal indicator that, hey, this is one hard to crack guy - he have survived periods of starvation and still have some actual muscle, so most likely he's an able guy.

    Plus, it's pretty silly to think that women will judge a potential mate from a definite set of standards. There's also the psychology - the whole 'looks like my dad' thing, or whether they live in a forested area where food is common but must be fought for vs. a savannah or desert area where you'd have to walk long distances, aka the strength vs. endurance thing.
    You could be onto something with the 6 pack explanation. There might be an element of genetics for which women are attracted to 6 packs because it signifies health and perseverance. However, his competitors were likely skinnier with less muscle, not fatter with more fat. I don't think you would have ever seen obesity in the wild, so there's no reason for our genetic primitive mind to have evolved to like it (even though obesity would logically mean access to tons of food). You would however have seen girthiness, which is like lots of muscle but not super defined because you have protective fat around it. This is closer to my ideal body because you can do anything with it and survive anything. There are slight benefits with the lower bodyfat, 6 pack body such as shaving seconds off of your running or swimming times, but your body is taxed more, you have a harder time staying warm, and it's more crucial to have a consistent food supply.

    So if women have possibly a slight disposition to 6 pack men because they are tough and persevere stuff, why do so many guys like girls with the 6 pack abs? Guys are not picking girls for the most part in the primitive mind; they are getting as much as possible. If they did pick girls, they want some fat on her and wide hips for better childbearing. I just had a eureka moment. Maybe the male inherits this trait on their x chromosome that they share with the females. So, it's not a male trait to go for 6 packs. It's just that they share some genes with women because they share the x chromosome.

    This brings me to a second eureka moment, albeit a little off topic. Maybe gay men are getting something else from their x chromosome that makes them really like guys?? It would not be a male characteristic, just a shared gene with women that they inherited because they had to take the whole x chromosome. Maybe this particular gene evolved to combat low levels of lesbianism in women???? Why would women have become semi-lesbian? Maybe lesbianism, or liking women, was a gene that evolved for men to want to screw women. Keep in mind folks that the y chromosome is very small, cannot recombine before being sent to kids (unlike the x chromosome), and does not change nearly as much as the x chromosome.

    Let's say both sexuality genes are on the x chromosome because they appear to affect men and women. Let's call gene A the one making you want to fuck guys. Let's call gene B the one making you want to fuck girls.
    -Lots of A and B makes you bisexual
    -Lots of A and little of B makes you gay as a man or straight as a woman.
    -Little of A and lots of B makes you straight as a man or gay as a woman.

    Now, ask this question: which are the preferable genes for a tribe to survive? In other words, which genes would have been more likely to be reproduced into the future and eventually the current, modern world? Bisexual genes! Lots of A and B takes few risks that many children will be gay or lesbian.

    Now ask yourself this question: does the gene pool of the modern world agree with this reasoning? I can only speak anecdotally that: lesbian-ish women seem to have very manly men for kids and for friends (along with lesbian-ish women of course), and gay-ish men seem to have very sexual, straight women for daughters and friends (along with gay-ish men of course).

    In conclusion, bisexuality could be considered genetic fitness if everything I said turns out to be correct. Maybe one reason lower bisexuality (specifically the kind of low in A and high in B) appears in certain races is because this combination produces manly men and lesbians, which produce better armies and militaries. Just MAYBE. I'm basing that on the fact that there are lots of races with lower bisexuality frequency. However, sexuality is greatly influenced by the customs of your society. It could be these races just have their bisexuality under wraps.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 03-15-2013 at 03:11 AM.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAtTaree View Post
    Chinese proverb: thin women for looking at, fat women for lying on.

    As a 64 year old male with much varied experience in that field, being of the flower power generation I would concur with the above.
    I'm going to use that proverb

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeAtTaree View Post
    Chinese proverb: thin women for looking at, fat women for lying on.

    As a 64 year old male with much varied experience in that field, being of the flower power generation I would concur with the above.
    And that, ladies and gentlemen is just one reason I like men in their sixties. (Experience, humor.)

    On a different note, unless Playboy has changed a lot, I don't remember those women looking like fashion models. The Playboy models were curvy whereas the fashion model is built in a way that showcases clothing. Maybe men are attracted to women they sense they have a shot at. It's the rare Woody Allen type that has the confidence to go after the "prettiest" woman in the room.
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  6. #16
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    Heh, I'll have to disagree with you there, Porters. I think you are trying to look into individual gene sets for answers that can be explained by worldwide human psychology. For example, most of the lesbian women I've known have actually been very feminine. I'm a straight woman, and I'm - in lack of better terms - very 'manly'. Most of the 'manly' women are that way as adults simply because they have spent more time around guys than gals. Some might have grown up without a mother figure but still had a father figure, they might've had a lot of brothers whom they were influenced by, or simply found it more enjoyable to play sports during school breaks than play family or with barbie dolls. As for me, I just got addicted by the game boy color when I was little, and I was the only girl who played with that, so... Yeah. *shrug*

    As for why females are attracted to 'skinnyness' is simple, really. It's survival of the fittest, and not the strongest. In the past, muscle would be a result from meeting dire needs - you HAD to be strong. It was a measurement of success, health, and other things. Today, it's not even a measurement for health with all the steroids going around. If anything, it would just tell the average woman that the guy hitting on her run with Hells Angels.
    Really, it's got a lot to do with familiarity. (Haven't you read all the articles that claim that women are more likely than not to marry a guy who bear some sort of likeness to their dad?) I mean, back in the days, if you married someone from a totally different cultural and racial background, you'd have no idea what sort of odd customs and nature religions you'd end up stuck with for the rest of your life. If you went with something familiar, it'd mean that the guy had grown up in and adapted to an environment and a life that you yourself was somewhat familiar with, too, and that would be a GOOD thing.

    So there you have it - the reasons why women today are often attracted to the 'skinny fat muscle thing' are:
    1. Bulging muscles suggest to some that he run with Hells Angels
    2. Unless the woman is also interested in an active lifestyle, it would mean that the man and the woman (or whatever gender we're talking about) might be incompatiable in an energy level. If I spent a large part of the year doing some sort of sport, I'd prefer to have a partner who could join me in my hobby from time to time.
    3. There's no need for it in todays society. The 'fittest' people nowadays are (sadly) guys who could do a lot of paperwork. Muscle means squat in terms of being able to fend for a family.
    4. The idea that Groks everywhere looked like Conan the barbarian is pretty silly. Depending on what environment your body had adapted to, it might make more sense to look like a long distance runner than someone who hauls serious iron. Besides, muscle will burn fat and that's not a good thing if you live in a place where food is scarce.
    5. It suggests a well-rounded guy. Most of the bulky dudes in the gym I know would be out of breath if they played soccer with the kids on the schoolyard outside. That's not necessarily the case with a skinny guy.


    So, while I myself would have an easier time feeling a physical attraction to a guy with some actual muscle, it's really not a strange thing that this is not necessarily the 'absolute' norm... There are more things to evolution than just the simplest things.

  7. #17
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    OK, I am not into super lean guys. I like defined muscles with some fat on them. Mark Sisson does not do it for me. I also am not at all into skinny fat guys. Nor fat guys (by fat I mean Michelin Man). I like guys that look like they could manhandle me.

    And the older I get, the more I learn that men really like something beyond the model type. They like meaty asses and boobs. I've even been surprised to hear that thighs are hot.

    And no one likes flab. Or fat rolls. Mostly it seems like defined shape is the preference.

    Back in the day, I doubt many "attractive" women looked like models- either runway models or fitness models as that low of body fat makes you unable to reproduce. Today's definition of the perfect body is related to being a clothes hanger and appealing to the gay men that seem to run the fashion industry. I also doubt that there were many shapeless, blob like women.

    Same with men- there probably were very few that somehow could achieve the Mark Sisson body where you somehow build muscle instead of fat.

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  8. #18
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    This is what I'm talking about!

    To be attracted to bony/angular/underfatted women is not likely something Grok would have demonstrated. Sure Grok was horny, but the alpha Grok got his pick....

    Likewise, I doubt Grokette would be most attracted to underfatted, over muscled, or the obese/bloated/skinny fat Grok.

    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    OK, I am not into super lean guys. I like defined muscles with some fat on them. Mark Sisson does not do it for me. I also am not at all into skinny fat guys. Nor fat guys (by fat I mean Michelin Man). I like guys that look like they could manhandle me.

    And the older I get, the more I learn that men really like something beyond the model type. They like meaty asses and boobs. I've even been surprised to hear that thighs are hot.

    And no one likes flab. Or fat rolls. Mostly it seems like defined shape is the preference.

    Back in the day, I doubt many "attractive" women looked like models- either runway models or fitness models as that low of body fat makes you unable to reproduce. Today's definition of the perfect body is related to being a clothes hanger and appealing to the gay men that seem to run the fashion industry. I also doubt that there were many shapeless, blob like women.

    Same with men- there probably were very few that somehow could achieve the Mark Sisson body where you somehow build muscle instead of fat.
    Last edited by iconoclast79; 03-15-2013 at 06:39 AM.

  9. #19
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    As far as physical shape goes, I vastly prefer thin women, it's just the way it's always been. I'm drawn to petite women over any other. Dark hair, very thin, damaged, that's my type. Though, maybe that's just my age. Most of the older men I talk to want "lots of them curves" and not the shape, but just a good amount of body fat.

    Basically, I want to rub my twig body against another twig and start a fire.

    This(with varying degrees of thinness):
    Last edited by Derpamix; 03-15-2013 at 06:49 AM.
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  10. #20
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    I think there's a lot of modernist projection going on here. In paleo times, people lived in small tribes. They didn't have access to a great many potential partners from which to choose for mates. If there's only one available mate when you reach puberty, you pick that one. Or your tribe does it for you. They didn't have access to statistical data that showed that on the average, people who are thin but still apparently healthy were slightly less likely to survive the next bad hunting season. And being thinner than average, for any one individual, can be normal and healthy, while some other individual at that weight might be clearly on the way out, which would have automatically removed them from the mating pool.

    I think the fact that unhealthy individuals are taken out of the gene pool by nature in times of environmental stress would have been a far greater influence than humans thinking this might happen and then doing so deliberately.

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