I reckon the solution is to do air squats and don't eat buns..sorted
In men, yes, in women - no. We do not experience the afterburn after heavy lifting, and have harder time letting go off fat. Lifting heavy loads does very little to mobilize fat for women in general. Lyle McDonalds has an inspired write-up about it. Women basically have to do cardio to mobilize fat. In addition muscle growth is not as pronounced in men, so the additional calories burned by additional muscular tissue that is minuscule to start with (the often-quoted number of 50 cals per lb is about 3x exaggerated) are pretty much insignificant.Building muscle and heavy lifting do burn fat. People just incorrectly associate fat loss with weight loss. I highly recomend people google a side by side comparison of what a pound of fat in comparison to a pound of muscle look like. What I am trying to say is that if you put on muscle and burn fat your results may not reflect on a scale. I know that for me personally I lose much more fat when I lift heavy than when I dont and generally - per Navy guidlines which are not exactly accurate - My bodyfat percentage is usually lower when I am about 190 pounds than when I am 180.
I have also experienced inability to increase muscle mass and strength when the BF% was lower - but by no means low enough to look firm with no dribble on the thigh area.
Bottom-line is that, yes, women CAN bulk up (i.e. experience hypertrophy) but heavy lifting on its own will not stimulate significant fat loss. Which MAY results in bigger troubled areas, aka thighs, where we have a confluence of a happily growing quad (women grow low body muscle and accumulate lower body strength MUCH more easily than the UB) and the most stubborn fat known to humanity - the female low body fat.
I reckon the solution is to do air squats and don't eat buns..sorted
Caution! My replies may contain traces of nuts!. My posts are just my opinion based on my experience with the primal way of life, there is no assurance it will work with others in the same way.
Started Primal 15th October 2012
Start weight 200lb
Loss so far 33.8lbs, now 166.2lb
Goal was 168lb's
Actually, the most effective way of losing fat that I tried includes eating insane amount of starch one day a week during the carb-up. White bread is one of the most successful carbing-up agents, because it is pure starch, basically just like rice and you can eat it in the quantity sufficient to replenish your glucogen very fast and very effectively without causing over-fed sensation. Now, obviously, you do not eat that if you follow Paleo ways, but if the body composition is the only goal, and there is no aversion to gluten, buns are a must to lose crazy amounts of fat while retaining muscle mass. I did it with rice and potatoes, potatoes more filling. For a truly massive amounts of carbs you can consume in 1 day, I don't think anything can beat French bread.
You won't be doing air squats on that regimen either... 90-rep workouts on the machines to isolate during the depletion, then a pump, then an as heavy as you can workout. And for women - lotsa cardio. If you can survive, it will make wonders and actually, yes, will tap into the thigh fat storage.
For comparison, neither steady deficits, nor eatic ketonic, nor eating cyclic ketonic did not do a shit.
Last edited by Leida; 03-19-2013 at 06:44 AM.
Toning without size is about keeping the gamma nervous system activated without stimulating type IIb muscle fibers which have the most potential for hypertrophy...higher reps, 15+ work the type I and type IIa fibers. Strength without size is about working with lower repetitions so neural development and not muscle cellular development occurs. Check out a book on exercise program design if you are interested. Poliquin is worth checking out.
Let's make exercise smarter. Integrativepersonaltraining.com
I am, however; willing to admit I am wrong if I am proved wrong.
Leida, just out of curiosity - and I am in no way being condesending - what are your qualifications? A lot of the information sounds like something regurgitated from a womens fitness mag. Look at Natalie Jill or any of the women competing in crossfit and MMA and I think your outlook on "lots of cardio" and "weightlifting doesn't burn fat in women like men" might change. I will give you its harder for women to put on muscle mass than men but I still believe, and believe that there is research to prove, that lifting heavy weights helps everyone burn fat not just men.
I find it funny you keep quoting Cross-Fit champs... well Cross-Fit is very boot-campy, meaning all these women integrate plenty of cardio into their routines, and lifting itself is done in a HIT style, very Jillian Michaels, lol, a mix of endurance, strength and cardio.
A personal experience of a woman with large thighs who did it all and 'by the book' from age 23 to age 38, from Cathy Smith and Buns of Steel to Jillian Michaels' to SL 5x5. Certified Group Fitness Instructor with the Provincial board, passed 3 exams and 2 practicals. Volunteer instructor for a year (in addition to the professional carrier). A mother of 1, experienced huge fat gain with pregnancy and lost most of the fat after carrying it for 2.5 years. Have Master Degree in an unrelated field.... Active participation on SL 5x5 boards for 1+ year and on this board + in RL talking to women who are not exceptional athletes, but just regular women who lift matching up workouts I observe other women doing in the gym with their body shape. Selected readings from cover to cover AND trying the suggested : Starting Strength, Lyle McDonald's Ultimate Diet 2.0, Lean Gains whatever I could dig up, Timothy Ferris, Kettlebell Training for Athletes, Hers M&F 101 and His M&F 101, Why Women Need Fat, New Rules of Lifting for Women, Strength Training for Women, Making the Cut, no women's fitness magazines like Shape and Oxygen (I dislike magazines because they are mostly fluff and finding any valuable info takes huge amount of time), all of Susan Albers Books, all of Hyman's books, Art DeVance, Cordain, PB 101, some odds and ends.... I am forgetting quite a few, I am sure. I want to emphasize that ANY book, of ANY persuasion and nutritional and exercise philosophy may have useful tidbit.
Specifically that women do not experience afterburn was mentioned by Ferris iirc and a couple of other books, based on some recent research. I think Lyle McDonalds' theories match my experience most closely, and I had the most success with losing fat while retaining muscle doing his routines, and he emphasizes the absolute and unequivocal need for women to add cardio to move fat off the stubborn areas.
All and all I agree there is no practical book that addresses body-building for women, i.e. maxing muscle and minimizing fat to get the firm look we all want. Yes, they will point out the mistakes of shredding muscle and not lifting enough heavy weight, but they do not take into account the athletic ceiling most women will experience and apart from Lyle I did not see anyone speak frankly about the hardships of losing the low body fat for women. Also, I think in the 90'ies when the paradigm shifted, and they started recommending lifting for women a lot of assumptions were made that were incorrect and directly transplanted CW for men into the women's books. While before, the talented and athletic women were lifting, now, with the mass advice to lift with a barbell permeating the media, we see women like me, the 'nothing special' women lifting, and the rules for the Average Jane are not the same that for Stacy and for Natalie. And it is NOT reflected in the Just Switch from Pink Dumbells to Lifting Heavy and You Will Look GORGEOUS! literature.
Sure, 20 years ago we had different recommendations for women, and it might have been novel to recommend heavy lifting. Now it's mainstream and commonplace. It also creates false expectations. I have heard from women who DLd like 300 lbs, didn't touch carbier things than avocado and spinach, and were stuck at 200 lbs body weight with >35% BF... and I am a typical women who after the euphoria of the linear gains that extinguished itself in less than 6 months got stuck on the miserable plateau and can bench 92 lbs but can't bench 95 lbs to save her life, for 2 years in a row, without missing proper lifting workouts....
I worked with PT, I tried 5x5, 3x5, Madcow, Failure workouts, had PT work with my from, had a consultation with a sprorts' nutritionist, and now do Cross-Fit WODs with weights that are safe for me, and the best achievement I come to realize I had made is being comfortable around the Olympic Bar.
So, do I qualify to offer my opinions and advice to other women? I dunno. But shutting up and not sharing it and continuously trying to figure out what the F**k is wrong with me that I don't fit into the rosy picture of continuous improvement and not on the fast track to the Athletic Goddess' figure with all the persistence and reading and trying routines and dietary approaches for at least 6 weeks each (unless it made me sick earlier)... and you know what? There is NOTHING wrong with me. I am just average or below average, so I am not Stacy.
And I want other women to avoid that expectation of a miracle once they step under the rack and be realistic. Maybe they are the next Stacy, maybe they are not. But get the truth, the whole range of it, not just look at the 1% sample of the best of the best genetic wonders. And I believe I am offering the experience of the great unwashed, as opposite to the experience of the fitness elite. F**k, I still remember the mouth-watering discussion in the New Rules of Lifting for Women, how weight lifting will not change your weight, but re-shape your shoulders and all that. I still feel let down by the author.
You can expect strength increase, and muscular size increase, particularly on the low body. You can't expect fat decrease on the low body just from lifting. It might happen, it might not, but the odds are stacked against it happening very high. If it doesn't, cardio and macros game is there for you for as far as your body will let you carry the torch. Lifting at deficit is likely to be pointless for BF decrease once you are below 25% BF. Getting trim tight thighs for a pear-shaped woman is one of the most complicated tasks she can undertake in her life. (Shrug) I put less time, research, thought and efforts in gaining my Master's Degree, finding a job, becoming a professional in my chosen field than in getting rid of the excess fat on my thighs, and I am an MSc, a respected specialist, in good standing with my professional organization, but I still have large thighs with a bulge on the outside.
Last edited by Leida; 03-20-2013 at 06:38 AM.
I think this is true of everything. And I think it is sad that the most desired body shapes for women are so completely unattainable. That said, you can become the best "you" possible. I face it... my body still is not close to perfect, but it is better than it was before. Focus on what you have... I have a NICE ass. Strong thighs. Weight training has made my shoulders broader, even if my arms are still flabby. I have super nice hair and skin. So, no, Primal + Cross Fit have not made me a lean, low fat goddess... but it's made me look so much better. I'm not a blob anymore, I have a shape. And great skin. Appreciate the gains you make and keep working.And I want other women to avoid that expectation of a miracle once they step under the rack and be realistic. Maybe they are the next Stacy, maybe they are not. But get the truth, the whole range of it, not just look at the 1% sample of the best of the best genetic wonders
And Leida, for the love of GOD, 95% of US women 30 and up would kill to have your body for bikini season.
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I feel bad about frustrating folks, but please, see where I am coming from. I work, and work and work, and I never seem to break through from where I got many years ago without any efforts but just normal play. In fact, I am worse now that I started eating to keep the hunger down. I was 15-17 lbs lighter on the pics I took ~ 115-118 lbs. I am 130 + now, not sure if I crested 135 or not. I love swimming, so I am in the swimsuit all the time, and I am continuously frustrated that the softness of my body never reflects the weight lifting I do. The firmness eludes me. Every time I get out of the gym to the locker room after a workout that left me worked to the bone and happy with what I did, I come to the locker room, pull that T off, and lo and behold, the gut is still there, the roll is over my waist-band. With clothes I still look good, in a bathing suit... no. It feels unfair.
Now, Stacy, Natalie... yeah, that's super-cool.
EDIT: To get it past the personal whine, I do lifting and a variety of cardio (swimming, skating, running, elliptical, Zumba, etc). I did do only lifting + walking for a while, it was worse. My net weight loss from overweight to normal weight range came from cardio + bootcamps with light weights, and my only leaning out after that - from Lyle McDonald's which had 4 strength workouts of different type (depletion, pump and power) a week with cardio of 30 to 60 min long in addition to MS. Improvements never came without structured cardio.
Last edited by Leida; 03-20-2013 at 07:51 AM.