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Thread: Best Rebuttal needed for Low Carb "Myth" statement page 17

  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Straw man much? No. I did not say that. You can get back into ketosis... if you follow the strict protocol to get there! However, it's not as easily achieved as our default state of burning glucose preferentially.

    Glucose (and fat burning) = nearly effortless by millions of food combinations
    Ketosis = several processes have to occur and a very fine balance of macronutrients and caloric restrictions have to be maintained to sustain it
    Don't double back, you started the discussion saying one bite of carrot will put you out of ketosis.

    I don't see a high fat diet being any different to a low fat diet, the body can quite readily run without any fat intake (aside from the essential 03 & O6) as it can on a no carb diet, but either way as soon as you introduce the missing Macro, it will adjust it's processes and utilize the dietary intake in the most efficient manner.

    IMO they are the two extremes of a continuous gradient and the body adjusts continuously to balance food intake with nutrient usage most efficiently within the body.

    We just don't really have a suitable/healthy example on the no fat end of the scale to study how quickly their body adjusts to the inclusion of fat.

  2. #162
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    If you are calling ketosis extreme, why are you saying its healthy or preferable?

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Don't double back, you started the discussion saying one bite of carrot will put you out of ketosis.
    I said it can. It's a possibility. Ketosis is a delicate balance. Overeating a large steak can pop you out of it, too. It's not an easy state to maintain without carefully minding your macros and calories. Conversely, it is very easy to revert to primarily glucose burning.

    I don't see a high fat diet being any different to a low fat diet, the body can quite readily run without any fat intake (aside from the essential 03 & O6) as it can on a no carb diet, but either way as soon as you introduce the missing Macro, it will adjust it's processes and utilize the dietary intake in the most efficient manner.

    IMO they are the two extremes of a continuous gradient and the body adjusts continuously to balance food intake with nutrient usage most efficiently within the body.

    We just don't really have a suitable/healthy example on the no fat end of the scale to study how quickly their body adjusts to the inclusion of fat.
    Yes. The body is capable of adapting to several circumstances. However, the default is to primarily burn glucose attained from dietary sources before relying on secondary mechanisms, such as gluconeogenesis.
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  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    Just mentioning anything about them is an opinion, and thus bias, as we can't accurately assess how well or unwell they lived or felt.

    Stress response promotes a metabolic slowdown to prevent your body from literally consuming itself because it assumes you're starving without adequate glucose as more than 5 molecules of ATP are needed to sustain gluconeogenesis alone. It sustains this by using cortisol full time to break down protein containing tissues to create glucose in the liver. It has to slow down your metabolism, and thus thyroid.

    Obviously this is stressful on your body. Just morphing your stress hormones from adaptive to working around the clock causes degeneration on a wide scale. Not even factoring in the body releasing tryptophan rich tissues or liberating pufa into the blood stream.

    The body can be really resilient. It says nothing about long term sustainability of ketosis.
    If you look back, I mentioned both Inuit & Kitavans as two extremes of diet, never suggested anything about their health merely that they are cited by the different sides of the debate.

    There is no evidence of a metabolic slow down in everyone in Ketosis, only some specific individuals, and likewise, although I haven't looked at it specifically, I don't believe everyone responds with the stress response, just for that point is there any data to say all Inuit on their natural diet have high cortisol levels and subdued thyroid function?

    As for energy consumption in gluconeogenesis, how much excess energy is required to convert excess glucose, in a high carb diet, to fat for storage.

    I'd like to see the data for this stress response, it doesn't make sense to me at the moment, there are plenty of happy, calm, balanced individuals in ketosis, well they appear to be anyway.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    If you are calling ketosis extreme, why are you saying its healthy or preferable?
    Never said it was preferable, or the healthiest approach, but in saying that I do believe it is healthy to venture there sometimes, just to keep all our metabolic machinery lubricated, likewise maybe an all carb day may have benefits as well.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    I said it can. It's a possibility. Ketosis is a delicate balance. Overeating a large steak can pop you out of it, too. It's not an easy state to maintain without carefully minding your macros and calories. Conversely, it is very easy to revert to primarily glucose burning.

    Yes. The body is capable of adapting to several circumstances. However, the default is to primarily burn glucose attained from dietary sources before relying on secondary mechanisms, such as gluconeogenesis.
    Whatever your history or research is you have come to the place of grading one ahead of the other, I don't, I see them both as having their place in the body.

    Your insistance that glucose is the primary and preffered fuel is ignoring the fact that the body must rid itself of excess glucose ASAP to maintain blood glucose within strict parameters, so yes it does jump to burning it first, filling glycogen stores and then storing it as fat. Whereas fat is quite easily handled by the body and large quantities do not present such a toxic threat.

  7. #167
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    I agree with Omni. I function best when my body is running on dual fuel. It prefers a little more fat than glucose.
    F 5 ft 3. HW: 196 lbs. Primal SW (May 2011): 182 lbs (42% BF)... W June '12: 160 lbs (29% BF) (UK size 12, US size 8). GW: ~24% BF - have ditched the scales til I fit into a pair of UK size 10 bootcut jeans. Currently aligning towards 'The Perfect Health Diet' having swapped some fat for potatoes.

  8. #168
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    I probably sit around 70:30 fat:carb and in addition to that IF 20/4 most days, but not strict about it and do not count anything, just eat from a good selection of food and try to live well.

  9. #169
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    Most people, if not all go into nutritional ketosis every once in a while, even when not on a specific diet. It occurs most commonly at night, while sleeping.
    IMO and IME it could become unhealthy when the body is in Ketosis for a very extended period of time. My thyroid could not function properly after a while in ketosis. Many people however seem to not have any problems.
    Last edited by Graycat; 03-15-2013 at 05:17 PM.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omni View Post
    Whatever your history or research is you have come to the place of grading one ahead of the other, I don't, I see them both as having their place in the body.

    Your insistance that glucose is the primary and preffered fuel is ignoring the fact that the body must rid itself of excess glucose ASAP to maintain blood glucose within strict parameters, so yes it does jump to burning it first, filling glycogen stores and then storing it as fat. Whereas fat is quite easily handled by the body and large quantities do not present such a toxic threat.
    I agree that we are always burning glucose and fat by default. Glucose is just preferential to the brain and activity. I think the two extremes of a very low-(dietary)-fat diet or a ketosis diet are both secondary choices of the body and brain even though we have potential to run on both. Some of us go to these extremes and do it with great ease and live quite optimally. 30 bananas, all meat + fat diets, etc. Most do not thrive on them because I believe both diets take great effort to maintain unlike a mixed diet that the body responds to more easily.

    The "fat burning beast" concept is misleading. We already are fat burners.
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