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  1. #611
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    wiltondeportes, as far as explaining how a society free of government would work, it doesn't matter. I'm serious. It really doesn't matter. In general, people are good and resourceful and will find a way to solve their problems.

    Imagine going back in time to 1850's South Carolina and talking to a group of slave owners. You tell them that they must free their slaves, because keeping people enslaved is evil. They say that this may be the case, but their economy depends on cotton, and if the slaves are free, it will be much harder to pick the cotton. You say that they shouldn't worry about it, because people will eventually build these machines called tractors, which will pick the cotton automatically and be able to do the work of hundreds of men. Of course, they'll say that you're crazy and won't be able to visualize such a thing, but you'll know it to be true.

    We have no idea about what kind of wonderful new inventions that humanity will produce in our lifetime. If government ceases to exist, people will, over time, learn to solve their problems.
    Ok, when technology changes and makes government obsolete, let me know. Until that point, we have to assume that it hasn't happened and won't happen.

  2. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Ok, when technology changes and makes government obsolete, let me know. Until that point, we have to assume that it hasn't happened and won't happen.
    You're right. Having a select group say, "I'm a tax agent, and if you don't give me 30% of your income, I'll lock you in a cage." makes society possible .
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  3. #613
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    From a "we're in this together" perspective, let's stick to logic so that we can have a serious discussion. Instead of tearing down the system any time you find one error, analyze the system as a whole to figure out why it got to be that way. Before calling for actions, think.

    Think!!!
    You can't even be taken seriously. ONE error? lol Wow. The problem with this discussion is that you simply don't agree with what most people constitute as a problem. You have no issue with murder, extortion, kidnapping, and enslavement so long as some are living a relatively comfortable lifestyle with paved roads and street sweepers. Why are individuals held accountable for the crimes they commit but the state and all those (at the top) involved within it are immune to accountability for its wrongdoings?

    I don't know if you truly understand the magnitude of the wrongdoings or if you genuinely do not care, but I am positive that if most people actually knew what the news doesn't report, the majority would agree that this system is beyond salvaging. It's evil to the core. And I'm not talking about Alex Jones conspiracy BS. I'm talking about gruesome facts that cannot be disputed.
    Last edited by j3nn; 09-16-2013 at 07:56 PM.
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  4. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post

    society with seemingly no structure.
    You underestimate human nature

  5. #615
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamienMaddox View Post
    There have been numerous periods of anarchy right here in the u.s. In pennsylvania William Penn had temporarily suspended taxation to encourage development. He tried unsuccessfully to reestablish taxes and the populace ignored any and all rule of law, this went on between 1680 and 1690. No civilization collapse started the anarchy, people just got a taste of freedom and decided to keep it that way (for as long as they could).

    rhode island was basically an anarchist settlement when it was founded.

    Medieval iceland is also an example of a stateless society that functioned fine for almost two centuries.
    Well, it depends on what your interpretation of the word 'state' is. 17th century Pennsylvannia and medieval Iceland surely had some form of government. If it wasn't a large national government, it was a local government. People simply don't live next door to each other if they belong to different governments.

    Furthermore, all of your examples are not valid for modern day. If you go back to that lifestyle, you give up all of modern progress and accomplishment.


    Quote Originally Posted by DamienMaddox View Post
    The free market. All that government boils down to is one giant organization. The only difference between the way government does business and the way peaceful people do business is that government does not compete. Government maintains a monopoly through violence and coercion. If government didn't have police and military to threaten you, you wouldn't pay for their licenses, their titles, or anything else they demand of you.

    Society doesn't need a violent monopoly in order to function.

    People perform better when their motivation has them chasing goals, rather than when they're motivated to escape a threat.
    There has never been a totally free market.

    The government uses force because that is its sovereignty. This is normal, not amoral.

    Society is a violent monopoly, one way or another.

    Quote Originally Posted by moluv View Post
    You underestimate human nature
    No, you overestimate it because you fear the truth. The truth is not 'low' or 'amoral'; it's just the truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jefferson1775 View Post
    You're right. Having a select group say, "I'm a tax agent, and if you don't give me 30% of your income, I'll lock you in a cage." makes society possible .
    Yes it does. You're catching on.

    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    You can't even be taken seriously. ONE error? lol Wow. The problem with this discussion is that you simply don't agree with what most people constitute as a problem. You have no issue with murder, extortion, kidnapping, and enslavement so long as some are living a relatively comfortable lifestyle with paved roads and street sweepers. Why are individuals held accountable for the crimes they commit but the state and all those (at the top) involved within it are immune to accountability for its wrongdoings?

    I don't know if you truly understand the magnitude of the wrongdoings or if you genuinely do not care, but I am positive that if most people actually knew what the news doesn't report, the majority would agree that this system is beyond salvaging. It's evil to the core. And I'm not talking about Alex Jones conspiracy BS. I'm talking about gruesome facts that cannot be disputed.
    I do not like murder. You cannot comprehend what I am saying. I am saying that murder, among other things, is unavoidable. Murder exists in large, centralized systems and it exists in systems with many small tribal groups.

    You are tearing down a system for things that exist in all systems. That's why you need to understand the *why* of things existing before tearing them apart. You have nothing better to replace the current system. You have ideological garbage.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 09-16-2013 at 09:15 PM.

  6. #616
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    There has never been a totally free market.
    You don't need two free hands to understand that one tied behind the back makes it harder to get things done.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    The government uses force because that is its sovereignty. This is normal, not amoral.
    Sovereignty doesn't exist in objective reality. It's a concept somebody imagined. No different from religion, it's a belief. You cannot see, feel, hear, touch, or taste it. Whether someone feels it is moral or amoral doesn't make it any more real. Whether you punish non-believers by the thousands or millions won't make it real either.

    There is nothing normal about belief in a delusion.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Society is a violent monopoly, one way or another.
    So then what is the point of society?

    You either believe in the individual or you don't. If you don't believe in the power of the individual then how can you believe in the power of a collective? You can add zero's all day, but it will never add up to anything.

    How do you believe in a small group of individuals making decisions for the collective? If you believe there are groups of individuals capable of performing such an important role without help from an even bigger organization, then why wouldn't you believe there are smaller groups of people capable of advancing society without the help of government?

  7. #617
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    wilton i can't help but think you live in a larger urban area and haven't spent any appreciable time in a more rural setting

    things can and do get done without governmental or slavatorial assistance, man is self policing (shame is a powerful thing. when everyone gives you the stink eye you know you messed up) and when favors aren't done for money, they are done for items (jelly, jam, pie, return use of tools, etc)

    i've been keeping up with this thread and the only thing i'm getting from your arguments is a glaring, flashing neon sign that says I LIVE IN A CITY
    beautiful
    yeah you are

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  8. #618
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    Quote Originally Posted by DamienMaddox View Post
    You don't need two free hands to understand that one tied behind the back makes it harder to get things done.



    Sovereignty doesn't exist in objective reality. It's a concept somebody imagined. No different from religion, it's a belief. You cannot see, feel, hear, touch, or taste it. Whether someone feels it is moral or amoral doesn't make it any more real. Whether you punish non-believers by the thousands or millions won't make it real either.

    There is nothing normal about belief in a delusion.



    So then what is the point of society?

    You either believe in the individual or you don't. If you don't believe in the power of the individual then how can you believe in the power of a collective? You can add zero's all day, but it will never add up to anything.

    How do you believe in a small group of individuals making decisions for the collective? If you believe there are groups of individuals capable of performing such an important role without help from an even bigger organization, then why wouldn't you believe there are smaller groups of people capable of advancing society without the help of government?
    I'm guessing you're from the country? You talk with a whole lot of proverbs that don't apply to what you're talking about.

    I believe in a small group of individuals making decisions for the collective because that is a step above mob rule. The collective purely making decisions is mob rule, and that is essentially tribalism. Mob rule and tribalism cannot function with large numbers in their society. In contrast, civilization cannot function with small numbers in their society. We have a very large society with democracy (mob rule) and republicanism (representative rulers). There's a continuum of purity for both of those ideas, and we lie somewhere in the middle.

    Smaller groups won't advance society. There will be bitter competition in many parts for a long time. Eventually, there may be some lax competition and easy food surplus, which will lead to higher populations that will again compete bitterly until the population finds equilibrium.

    Federal governments essentially take these groups of people and make them compete economically rather than violently. There is still much violence, as any system would have, but there is more good than bad.

    What is the point of society? I'll take that two ways. Civilization is to achieve, succeed, progress, evolve, maximize potential. This may be post hoc, but that's irrelevant now. Society itself, of which tribes are the basic unit, is to survive.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 09-16-2013 at 09:39 PM.

  9. #619
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    Quote Originally Posted by bloodorchid View Post
    wilton i can't help but think you live in a larger urban area and haven't spent any appreciable time in a more rural setting

    things can and do get done without governmental or slavatorial assistance, man is self policing (shame is a powerful thing. when everyone gives you the stink eye you know you messed up) and when favors aren't done for money, they are done for items (jelly, jam, pie, return use of tools, etc)

    i've been keeping up with this thread and the only thing i'm getting from your arguments is a glaring, flashing neon sign that says I LIVE IN A CITY
    LOL

    Everybody on this message board appears to guess the opposite of what I am. I've lived much of my life rurally, and I like it a lot.

    Man "self-policing" goes back to smaller, organized groups similar to tribes. There is no way to police without organization first. However, a small group's capability to police comes far, far, far short of what's needed to police and keep modern civilization together.

  10. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    I'm guessing you're from the country? You talk with a whole lot of proverbs that don't apply to what you're talking about.

    I believe in a small group of individuals making decisions for the collective because that is a step above mob rule. The collective purely making decisions is mob rule, and that is essentially tribalism. Mob rule and tribalism cannot function with large numbers in their society. In contrast, civilization cannot function with small numbers in their society. We have a very large society with democracy (mob rule) and republicanism (representative rulers). There's a continuum of purity for both of those ideas, and we lie somewhere in the middle.

    Smaller groups won't advance society. There will be bitter competition in many parts for a long time. Eventually, there may be some lax competition and easy food surplus, which will lead to higher populations that will again compete bitterly until the population finds equilibrium.

    Federal governments essentially take these groups of people and make them compete economically rather than violently. There is still much violence, as any system would have, but there is more good than bad.

    What is the point of society? I'll take that two ways. Civilization is to achieve, succeed, progress, evolve, maximize potential. This may be post hoc, but that's irrelevant now. Society itself, of which tribes are the basic unit, is to survive.
    I have lived in both urban and rural areas. I dont see how that has any relevance to the topic other than to excuse yourself from addressing the points.

    You didnt really answer anything. You point out that mob rule on small scale is bad, but it works on a larger scale as if by magic. Just because we give it a new name? What makes fewer people making decisions better if you don't trust people to run their own lives in the first place?

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