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  1. #551
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
    Mr.Perfidy is offline Senior Member
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    Also there are hundreds of thousands or even millions of tradesmen whose value to society, ie, why they can trade for food, is entirely built on them providing their knowledge and labor so that people have infrastructure...
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  2. #552
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    Why wouldn't people want infrastructure?

    Suppose the power grid is destroyed by some super weapon in my region, and 5 years later, the survivors still live in this valley.

    Why would we not organize some kind of means of raising funds to pay some engineers that would fix it?
    Well frankly, we're talking about an unknown. There has never, in human history, been a collapse like the one you describe. I believe it is definitely possible too.

    I think we'll have massive ghost towns, first of all. At least half the population of the world would die within a year if everything collapsed. It could even be 60%, 80%. Without the ability to create gasoline, you don't have the ability to ship, and you don't get food to dense populations. Water becomes very dirty in these dense areas. Previously frivolous medical conditions like diarrhea become potentially lethal. Violence rises as desperation forces competition for the few survival resources (chiefly food, medical supplies, and weapons).

    Why would a massively dwindled population give a fuck about infrastructure. They are 100% in survival mode. It would take a long time to build back to civilization unless everyone quickly agrees to a government.

    Why would they organize funds? If only 50% of the communities agree to fix it, you don't get a fully connected infrastructure. You need complete agreement to create a seemless infrastructure, and for that, you need government.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 09-15-2013 at 01:20 PM.

  3. #553
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    Also there are hundreds of thousands or even millions of tradesmen whose value to society, ie, why they can trade for food, is entirely built on them providing their knowledge and labor so that people have infrastructure...
    Of course people want to use their skills to make money/resources. But why would people pay them to use those skills? There's not enough benefit to the payer in a low complexity society.

  4. #554
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
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    Why would they organize funds? If only 50% of the communities agree to fix it, you don't get a fully connected infrastructure. You need complete agreement to create a seemless infrastructure, and for that, you need government.
    once there's power, more people can begin more production. Anyone who wanted in on Production would want to chip in on and create a power grid. The people who didn't contribute are not going to get laid, because their women will leave their beds to sleep in air conditioning.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  5. #555
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
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    You ever watch Deadwood?
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  6. #556
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
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    also why do you imagine that people with infrastructure building/maintaining skills would just sit around unemployed because no one was paying them? Having electricity is compensation...flushing a toilet is compensation.
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  7. #557
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
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    More importantly...lol

    infrastructure can suck my dick. It's a fancy word for "most efficiently ringing sweat from the poor to spice the wine of the ruling class."

    Lyndon LaRouche makes a good argument about railroads in Africa, if you want to talk about infrastructure.

    Here are some generally universal human social dynamics that are generally true in all populations not mid-violent conflict:

    1) People educate ignorant people. Dickheads trying to stay relevant might horde some technical knowledge to be the one to get paid to employ it, but in general, everyone learns everything that everyone else knows when they have time to do so. There's a mechanic on my block; now I can change a radiator. He still got paid and still enjoys higher status relative to auto repair

    2) People protect vulnerable people. There are always asshole bullies nd exploiters, but, women get frigid watching that behavior, and get wet watching strong men put them in their place.

    3) People heal their sick. Kinda the same reason as #2
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  8. #558
    wiltondeportes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr.Perfidy View Post
    once there's power, more people can begin more production. Anyone who wanted in on Production would want to chip in on and create a power grid. The people who didn't contribute are not going to get laid, because their women will leave their beds to sleep in air conditioning.
    You're out of your mind. Women will not sexually force men to work on a power grid. They're far more submissive than you give them credit for.

    You're not going to have a working power grid. But not only do you need the grid, you need to drill oil, ship it, refine it, and convert it to electricity.

  9. #559
    Mr.Perfidy's Avatar
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    you're confusing your mother for Woman
    "Ah, those endless forests, and their horror-haunted gloom! For what eternities have I wandered through them, a timid, hunted creature, starting at the least sound, frightened of my own shadow, keyed-up, ever alert and vigilant, ready on the instant to dash away in mad flight for my life. For I was the prey of all manner of fierce life that dwelt in the forest, and it was in ecstasies of fear that I fled before the hunting monsters."

    Jack london, "Before Adam"

  10. #560
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    The thing that is too funny for me about libertarianism is that people think their flavor of it is the One True Way. I like aspects of social libertarianism, aspects of anarcho-libertarianism, and aspects of "traditional" or simple "conservative" libertarianism.

    The truth is that a lot of the ideas have merit. But not a lot of them have actual working systems. Communes and elect-in ecovillages and rural townships might be the closest constructs.

    Also, i see yet another reason why Wilton isn't able to get/keep a girlfriend. His opinion of women is quite . . . narrow minded and . . . low.

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