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  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    I read Ishmael, My Ishmael, Story of B, Providence, and Beyond Civilization.
    Good start. The Holy is a total mindf*ck, After Dachau is awesome as well, and Tales of Adam, The Man Who Grew Young, and If They Give You Lined Paper are worth the time as well. As are the essays and speeches on the website. Just next time you get bored for a few hours.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Who cares about fiat currency? Are you one of those that believes we should return to a gold standard? Why? What intrinsic value does gold have? Absolutely none.
    Gold is outmoded probably. I believe many things have intrinsic value. It doesn't have to be just gold, it can be just about anything that is valuable to someone. The gold standard has evolved to mean more than gold these days. Currency doesn't necessarily have to have universal value.

    If the government fell apart, and people tried to become self-supporting, large amounts of violence would exist until public cooperation (aka government) came back around. Economic interdependence lessens violence, you know. Look at how the once-violent Europe is now getting along now.
    I don't agree with this conclusion. I think there are better alternatives in this day in age.
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  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    In modern days, you can protect yourself with firearms and other weapons or automate defense systems or hire security agencies. I think we have more options now than being at the mercy of tribes.
    Who's going to make guns, security systems, or even start a security firm when those workers don't have the infrastructure to by groceries at the end of their work day? None of that economic production will exist, therefore you will have no other options but tribes if our government fell. Then, you will wonder how you had it so good but thought it was so bad.

    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    We live in a mostly fascist society enforced by a militaristic presence. Some other elements exist for the illusion that we have choices. We do not have truly free markets and our version of capitalism comes at the expense of paying the extortion fee to the biggest gang we know of.
    We do not have truly free markets just as we do not have a truly fascist system. This is the continuum I spoke of.

    Elements exist only for their illusion? Really? So there is a global conspiracy to enslave people for the "powers that be"? Are you one of those people that believes that crap? That listens to Alex Jones? I know that ideology all too well, being as I've lived with someone like that.

    What's wrong with the "biggest gang you know of" being a gang? Isn't that what you want to exist, gangs? They would be smaller gangs in a tribal lifestyle, but they're still gangs. Perhaps you naively believe this change of power structure would be beneficial to you. However, *everyone* benefits from this larger umbrella of power that we call government through an increase in "quality of lifestyle".

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Gold is outmoded probably. I believe many things have intrinsic value. It doesn't have to be just gold, it can be just about anything that is valuable to someone. The gold standard has evolved to mean more than gold these days. Currency doesn't necessarily have to have universal value.
    Essentially, you're saying we should barter instead of use universal currency. If it comes to bartering, nothing but bows, arrows, tomahawks, and food will be worth much. Ok, perhaps ceremonial beads to spice up life will count for something. Ok, perhaps we will barter guns for a time too, but eventually ammo will run out without any factories to produce it.

    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    I don't agree with this conclusion. I think there are better alternatives in this day in age.
    Define "day in age". The Yugoslav wars were just 15 years ago. Anarchy then surely lead to tribal/gang lifestyle with a lot of violence, just as I described.

    But really, let's hear these better options. I am open-minded enough to consider them.
    Last edited by wiltondeportes; 09-13-2013 at 11:54 AM.

  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Who's going to make guns, security systems, or even start a security firm when those workers don't have the infrastructure to by groceries at the end of their work day? None of that economic production will exist, therefore you will have no other options but tribes if our government fell. Then, you will wonder how you had it so good but thought it was so bad.
    What? The government runs grocery stores and the transport vehicles that deliver to them? What makes you think none of that would exist without government? It already does.

    We do not have truly free markets just as we do not have a truly fascist system. This is the continuum I spoke of.
    Yes we do.

    Elements exist only for their illusion? Really? So there is a global conspiracy to enslave people for the "powers that be"? Are you one of those people that believes that crap? That listens to Alex Jones? I know that ideology all too well, being as I've lived with someone like that.
    No I don't listen to Alex Jones, but do you think the Fed Reserve is an upstanding corporation that has no agenda? Do you think politicians who are bought and sold by corporations, those corporations have no global agenda? It's not a conspiracy, it's fact. Politicians are appointed by corporations to do their bidding.

    What's wrong with the "biggest gang you know of" being a gang? Isn't that what you want to exist, gangs? They would be smaller gangs in a tribal lifestyle, but they're still gangs. Perhaps you naively believe this change of power structure would be beneficial to you. However, *everyone* benefits from this larger umbrella of power that we call government through an increase in "quality of lifestyle".
    You and this tribal BS, lol. Is a family a tribe? Are roommates a tribe? I don't want anything to exist that each individual doesn't agree to. Individual can do whatever they please so long as it doesn't violate someone else's inalienable rights.
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  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Essentially, you're saying we should barter instead of use universal currency. If it comes to bartering, nothing but bows, arrows, tomahawks, and food will be worth much. Ok, perhaps ceremonial beads to spice up life will count for something. Ok, perhaps we will barter guns for a time too, but eventually ammo will run out without any factories to produce it.
    No. Bartering is an option, of course. But we can have as many currencies as we want; people can accept them or not. There will be more popular ones ala BitCoin et al, but the difference being you won't get thrown into a cage for creating or using or accepting alternative currency of your choice.

    Define "day in age". The Yugoslav wars were just 15 years ago. Anarchy then surely lead to tribal/gang lifestyle with a lot of violence, just as I described.
    What if people were presented with alternatives? Better ways of life that they had never considered? I never considered a voluntary society until a few years ago.

    But really, let's hear these better options. I am open-minded enough to consider them.
    Voluntary society. That's all I have.

    ETA: http://v.i4031.net/StatistFallacies

    and http://www.voluntaryist.com/
    Last edited by j3nn; 09-13-2013 at 12:09 PM.
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  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    What? The government runs grocery stores and the transport vehicles that deliver to them? What makes you think none of that would exist without government? It already does.
    No, it exists with government.

    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Yes we do.
    I'll play along for a moment. What would be bad about this?


    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    No I don't listen to Alex Jones, but do you think the Fed Reserve is an upstanding corporation that has no agenda? Do you think politicians who are bought and sold by corporations, those corporations have no global agenda? It's not a conspiracy, it's fact. Politicians are appointed by corporations to do their bidding.
    There are many, many powerful parties in the world conspiring for their own power. I was simply rejecting the notions that...

    • they are out to get less powerful people because they don't like them
    • they are all conspiring together as a single unit
    • they are all powerful and all knowing


    I fully acknowledge the concept of conspiracy. It's a human fact and a major element of politics. What does conspiracy mean? Two or more parties coming together for a common goal.

    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    You and this tribal BS, lol. Is a family a tribe? Are roommates a tribe?
    For simplicity's sake, yes you could call them tribes.
    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    I don't want anything to exist that each individual doesn't agree to.
    Unfortunately, that's not the way the world works, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Individual can do whatever they please so long as it doesn't violate someone else's inalienable rights
    Setting that rule is meaningless without setting up a structure for enforcing it, ala government. You really are making a lot of good points in my favor.

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    No. Bartering is an option, of course. But we can have as many currencies as we want; people can accept them or not. There will be more popular ones ala BitCoin et al, but the difference being you won't get thrown into a cage for creating or using or accepting alternative currency of your choice.
    Oh, are people thrown into cages for using Bitcoin? If they're not, then how is your mythological realm different from our moden day civilization? The only difference I see is your mythological place has enough people that agree with you.


    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Voluntary society. That's all I have.
    Therefore, you have nothing. You have a religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    I'm not going to waste my time reading that. If you want to present new evidence, quote it and summarize it.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    No, it exists with government.
    Does not. Are you saying a grocery store could not exist without the government?!

    I'll play along for a moment. What would be bad about this?
    The violence. The aggressive nature of it. How is it enforced? Through threats and violence, kidnapping and theft.

    There are many, many powerful parties in the world conspiring for their own power. I was simply rejecting the notions that...

    • they are out to get less powerful people because they don't like them
    • they are all conspiring together as a single unit
    • they are all powerful and all knowing


    I fully acknowledge the concept of conspiracy. It's a human fact and a major element of politics. What does conspiracy mean? Two or more parties coming together for a common goal.
    No, no. I agree with this. There are many conspiracies, but they don't all have the same motive or same people involved. But they do all agree on one thing and that is to control the money supply and the resources. The rest can be broken down into millions of other agendas.


    Unfortunately, that's not the way the world works, and there's nothing anyone can do about it.
    I think you're pessimistic.

    Setting that rule is meaningless without setting up a structure for enforcing it, ala government. You really are making a lot of good points in my favor.
    Not true. When the individual takes responsibility for him- or herself, the necessity of the state becomes obsolete.
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  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    Oh, are people thrown into cages for using Bitcoin? If they're not, then how is your mythological realm different from our moden day civilization? The only difference I see is your mythological place has enough people that agree with you.
    I wouldn't declare total victory on the Bitcoin front just yet. I think they are looking to tax it. But how would it be different? There wouldn't be the threat of a reallllllllly big gang trying to stop you from creating or using any currency you want.

    I'm not going to waste my time reading that. If you want to present new evidence, quote it and summarize it.
    Don't be lazy. If you are really open-minded, then you'll want to learn about it even if you don't agree with it. If not, I'm not going to spoon-feed it to you. You're loss.
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