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  1. #441
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    So now I can just enjoy my life and not stress about the general populace. I expect no better of them. Having no expectations of people and accepting no authority removes a tonne of stress.
    Good for you, but please don't think you are somehow superior or more enlightened... I assume you still live within the system.

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  2. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    Good for you, but please don't think you are somehow superior or more enlightened... I assume you still live within the system.
    You misunderstand me. I am in no way an anarchist, a communist or anti-government. I am merely debating these things from the perspective I used to take when I felt nothing would turn out good unless things changed. I dislike the system and would rather be on a farm, on my own, back in a small village. But I see society's benefits. I left those stages of being self-destructive and fullly sociopathic behind me a few years ago. Now I just play the system and play others for everything I can get. I am very much a part of this society, as long as it's convenient to me. When it isn't? I disregard it, of course.

    And I can think whatever I want of myself. As a narcissist, it's my prerogative to view others as inferior. When they prove themselves to me: pleasant surprise. Always nice to meet someone worth having some human interaction with. When they continue to allow themselves to be hurt and manipulated by myself, others or society in general: their problem. If they will not/cannot awaken, it becomes their role to be taken advantage of.
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    I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
    I'd apologize, but...

  3. #443
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    I wanted to finish reading this entire thread before responding, but I got sidetracked today and expect a really busy day at work tomorrow. So I don't know if I'll get to the rest of the thread before the weekend. I really need to respond to the post below though because it's driving me crazy so I apologize for responding without having read all of the posts that follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    The non-aggression principle is liberal weak sauce. Competition is a fundamental part of human life. If you restrict competition from going on in the public's eye, it will go on behind closed doors. What's wrong with that? Less stability, less checks and balances of power, and ultimately less sovereignty of each individual. Today, governments stand in the way of guys like Bill Gates from lording over the entire world like a Risk game. Without it, the capitalism nature is exponential, so power consolidates into far fewer hands than it would with governmental checks against them.
    First of all, the non-aggression principle does not prevent competition. I don't see how applying the non-aggression principle will prevent competition from occurring in public. What does that even mean? There will still be markets, and there will still be competition. In fact, in the absence of government regulation, there will be more competition, not less. This is because, our current system is really one of corporate socialism, where government regulations help large corporations by making it too expensive for smaller businesses to enter the market and compete effectively (regulatory compliance is expensive). Additionally, when big corporations or financial institutions screw up and fail, government bails them out because they're "too big to fail." This also makes it difficult for smaller businesses to compete because their bigger competitors aren't being eliminated by their own incompetence; rather, they continue to exist because of government bailouts.

    Bill Gates can't even dominate the software market. How do you expect him to lord over the entire world?


    Quote Originally Posted by wiltondeportes View Post
    "Liberties", again a vague concept, are good. However, there must be a tradeoff of liberties vs non-liberties for a working society to exist. Anarchism, once again, removes competition and power structures from the public eye. In the private eye, with modern society, you'll find nothing but selfish and destructive people doing business with no checks at all except the "evil" government. I thank fate that we have government for those situations.

    The utopian libertarian/anarchist society has never existed and will never exist. Any anarchist society will necessarily break apart into groups no larger than roughly 200 people. At that point, I agree that there can be some level of peace within the society. Ironically though, the inter-society violence sometimes raises the total level of violence above modern day standards. I say sometimes because there have been countless tribes in history, and I only know a small fraction. This is the evidence of human history speaking.

    And my argument against going back to tribal living is simply: Humans can do more than that. We can and should achieve great things. We should exceed Earth's humble confines. We should learn, create, explore, and ultimately achieve the maximum potential of the human mind until we evolve to an even higher potential. If you're not growing, why are you living? And factually speaking, human tribes are guaranteed to die within a set period of time because of the changing climate/sun/solar system. Achieving and exploring humans are not.
    You keep making these conclusory statements without supporting them with any real argument. How does anarchism remove competition and power structures from the public eye? You mean the Internet would no longer exist, and people will no longer be able to obtain information on anything so that everything will be shrouded in secrecy? Why would you assume that? What makes you think that all businesspeople are selfish and destructive? Are they any more selfish and destructive than the people who run the government?

    Why can't an anarchist society of more than 200 people exist? What are you basing this conclusion on? And why does there have to be violence between different societies? Your statements are ridiculous. They're all conclusory statements that aren't supported by anything.

    I'm not advocating a return to tribal life. And I never said that humanity should stop learning, creating, exploring, and striving to achieve its greatest potential. Nor does anarchism imply that. Where are you getting this from? You're just making things up.

    You said that you study physics, and I assume that you're actually good at it. But your deductive reasoning skills are seriously lacking. Scientific reasoning is inductive by nature, and, perhaps that's why some scientists appear to have very weak deductive reasoning abilities. This has historically been a big problem for me when dating scientists.
    Last edited by diene; 09-12-2013 at 08:39 PM. Reason: typo

  4. #444
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    Can someone please explain how compassion fits into libertarianism versus an only justice-oriented mindset?

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakura_girl View Post
    Can someone please explain how compassion fits into libertarianism versus an only justice-oriented mindset?
    Compassion should be voluntary. IOW, if a community (defined as anything of more than one person with a like-mind on a given subject) decides to help someone in need, that's fine, but govt sanctioned welfare is not.

    However from my perspective, if you don't give the poor enough to subsist, they will steal to get it if they can't earn it. Jails/prisons cost more than welfare (~$50k/year to keep someone incarcerated), so I'm okay with welfare.
    "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

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  6. #446
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    in liberty the cost of stealing would involve greater difficulties than producing, and consequently stealing is much less likely. State has robbed you of everything, and it's entirely the current social hierarchy which provokes one into stealing. There are ample other problems with the welfare state, but that's for another time. I'll just say that the money does come from somewhere, and I'm coerced into paying for welfare among many of my other taxes.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 09-13-2013 at 01:15 AM.
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  7. #447
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    Just a reminder: Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, it means no rulers.
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    “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

  8. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kochin View Post
    I know nobody is stopping me from doing whatever I want to. And I do whatever I want to. I just used to believe that others were 'trapped by the system', that that was the reason they all acted and behaved the same. I thought they were brainwashed and could be woken up. I was obsessed with my little Matrix-delusion from around the age of six. After years upon years of trying, I realized that, actually, they are that way because they're incapable of better. They can't 'wake up'. They need authority, control, restrictions. When you remove them, they break down. They aren't like me because they aren't wired that way.
    So now I can just enjoy my life and not stress about the general populace. I expect no better of them. Having no expectations of people and accepting no authority removes a tonne of stress.
    People are never ready for insurrection until it happens. Numerous cases in history have documented this. The steps of insurrection are always there. People feel all they can do is make tiny compromises right now. This is the narrative power promotes. As it is, I believe no one trusts the government anymore. Libertarianism is on the rise, and I believe minarchism is the first step towards total anarchy.

    When people see the causal link between "virtuous" violence and "heinous" violence, we'll be there to show them true virtue, and point out true heinousness. Those with the greatest passion are trying to get everyone riled up.
    Last edited by Derpamix; 09-13-2013 at 02:36 AM.
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  9. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by j3nn View Post
    Just a reminder: Anarchy doesn't mean no rules, it means no rulers.
    People don't realize that groups aren't a problem in anarchy. The governments themselves, that are lumped into these groups, that statists feel are human nature, would be fought off by the building of organizations that comply in accordance with anarchist principles: consensus, decentralization, and federalism.
    Longing is the agony of the nearness of the distant

  10. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by Derpamix View Post
    People don't realize that groups aren't a problem in anarchy. The governments themselves, that are lumped into these groups, that statists feel are human nature, would be fought off by the building of organizations that comply in accordance with anarchist principles: consensus, decentralization, and federalism.
    Without fiat currency, even building up a large business would be far more difficult much less a world-dominated market. The Fed is at the root of all that is wrong. Without it the biggest gang of them all (the state) would not have the power that it does and this is why they prop each other up. The black market is one of the biggest economies in the world; billions participate in it and very few monopolies exist, and the ones that do are usually assisted by the state in one way or another. Drug and guns laws are beneficial to cartels; free markets are not.
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