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Thread: Some thoughts from a still new PBer. page 5

  1. #41
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    Primal Fuel
    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus0 View Post
    I think there are a lot of different views on the boards, which is wonderful, and I also think that sometimes people(like myself for instance) type things up excitedly or in a conversational way that oversimplifies things. I don't blame sugar. Well, I suppose I blame sugar for myself. In fact I blame sweet tasting things, not just sugar. Honey, fruit, agave...these things will all inspire me to binge. I know Lustig isn't popular with everyone here but he does talk about the reward center. I fully believe my reward center is triggered by these foods.
    The reward center is also triggered by fat. This is generally built in to all humans. It doesn't mean these foods are bad. These can lead us to energy dense food sources which would keep us alive. In the modern world this isn't so advantageous when they are available almost every meal.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus0 View Post

    If someone cuts out sugar, stops binging, loses weight and gains some health does it really matter if they pinpoint sugar as the culprit? For most people, it wouldn't.
    I think it does. When someone goes vegetarian but also cuts out some other junk along with it and becomes much healthier I don't think it's entirely accurate to pinpoint only the meat. You'll see a lot of vegans attest to how cutting out meat and eggs made them feel so much better. I don't doubt that some of them do, especially people who do much better on a lower protein diet, but a lot of the time I'll guess that cutting other out other junk had a lot to do with it.
    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus0 View Post
    Besides, the only places I really enjoy sugar are all the places I don't need to be looking anyways, which are mostly processed foods. I will say, in my personal experience, I can find very creative ways to eat white sugar when binging. I have, in fact, eaten it with a spoon. Anything for the sweetness of sugar. So to me, sugar is the culprit. All by it's lonesome. I don't eat salt out of the container or hunt for fat in my fridge. I want something sweet.
    I have had plain cream and yogurt binges as well so I don't doubt it's possible to binge plain sugar. I have binged on other fairly bland foods as well., but generally it was a combination of fat/sugar.

    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus0 View Post

    You say "Sugar, fat, alcohol and certain foods can be "addictive" but it's not the fault of these substances." Well, if someone has an addictive personality that causes them to overindulge and become addicted to the point of being unhealthy and the only really helpful thing to do is abstain then I would say yes, it is the fault of those substances, for those people and in their situations.

    Anyways, those are just my thoughts. As someone who's been addicted to cigarettes, alcohol and cocaine I can tell you that this sugar "addiction" feels as much like any other substance addiction. You wouldn't tell a cocaine addict not to completely give up cocaine because there's proof that having a little cocaine here and there wouldn't hurt you, because that's silly. The cocaine addict can't just 'have a bump' because, like the AA saying, One is too many and one hundred is not enough.

    Sorry if that's long and silly, but it's my thoughts. I figured this is the place to discuss them.
    That's fair. As long as you don't go all Lustig and start calling for some kind of prohibition. The cocaine comparison isn't exactly rational. Sugar is a nutrient and is found in thousands of health promoting foods. Cocaine is , well, cocaine.

  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ayla2010 View Post
    To the OP. Good on you for finding something that finally worked for you. I was in the same boat with bingeing until I went primal. At first, it wasn't 100% no bingeing, but they were much much less frequent. Then after a 6 month long binge I went specifically HFLC, and actually counted for a bit there. I never had the urge to binge since, and still have not.
    But I do have to stay away from all sugar, even fruit as it does set up cravings for sweet things, and I am not ready to go there yet, but I do still have over 100 lbs to lose.
    Good luck to you, and hope you are able to become totally binge free.
    I don't know exactly what did it, but I feel so free now, which is huge after being a huge binger/low fat dieter due to all sorts of emotions for 12 years.
    This is so inspiring! I have been struggling for a very long time and sometimes it feels like nothing will help me.

    Even though I was very optimistic in the original post I am still fighting strong urges to binge. I do have faith that I'll find a way though.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by magnolia1973 View Post
    Timthetaco I don't think you understand sugar addiction. At all.
    Sugar addiction is not enjoying some fruits and carbs in addition to your meats and veggies. Sugar addiction is eating a big meal, then a brownie with ice cream, then more ice cream, then more brownie. It's mindlessly eating a 1lb bag of snickers bars and not being able to stop.

    I actually agree that carbs don't make us extra fat. But when some carbs have such a hold on you that you will go overeat thousands of calories they sure do.
    This was my exact case. I would binge eat ice cream and brownies like there was no tomorrow. Yet once I eliminated grains and sugar, it never happened again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus0 View Post
    This is so inspiring! I have been struggling for a very long time and sometimes it feels like nothing will help me.

    Even though I was very optimistic in the original post I am still fighting strong urges to binge. I do have faith that I'll find a way though.
    you will And it does get easier every time.

    Every single "diet" in the past has set me off on binges also. Primal does not feel like a diet to me. I am never starving (I think this often started things off, on the non emotional eating binges) and I feel good overall, which also helps. Not run down ya know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forgotmylastusername View Post
    That's fair. As long as you don't go all Lustig and start calling for some kind of prohibition. The cocaine comparison isn't exactly rational. Sugar is a nutrient and is found in thousands of health promoting foods. Cocaine is , well, cocaine.
    Actually since you mention it the similarities go beyond stimulating the same "feel good" brain hormones and reward centers. Both are quite detrimental to health as they are consumed by most people... they both undergo extensive processing to arrive at a very concentrated product. Chewing a fibrous piece of sugar cane or even a coca leaf is obviously not going to get you the same "high" as pounding straight sugar or snorting straight coke. In essence good luck getting enough of either substance to reach toxicity and/or addictive behavioral feedback patterns in whole form.... I don't see this happening with fat to be frank. The problem with fat is normally the displacement of healthy ones with oxidized rancid veggie oils.... not some sort of process induced reward overindulgence.
    Last edited by Neckhammer; 03-03-2013 at 07:02 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Actually since you mention it the similarities go beyond stimulating the same "feel good" brain hormones and reward centers. Both are quite detrimental to health as they are consumed by most people... they both undergo extensive processing to arrive at a very concentrated product. Chewing a fibrous piece of sugar cane or even a coca leaf is obviously not going to get you the same "high" as pounding straight sugar or snorting straight coke. In essence good luck getting enough of either substance to reach toxicity and/or addictive behavioral feedback patterns in whole form.... I don't see this happening with fat to be frank. The problem with fat is normally the displacement of healthy ones with oxidized rancid veggie oils.... not some sort of process induced reward overindulgence.
    Thats why i hate when when people use sugar as a blanket statement for anything sweet. Even i dont eat raw sugar, i have no need for it.

    As for fat, no. Pure fat is a very low reward food and needs to be combined with another taste to really hit the reward center.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Timthetaco View Post
    It's not entirely fair of me to do this since you've just started and you're really excited, but

    I was very curious so I tried to read through these articles but I really couldn't understand much of them so I wonder if you could explain them in simpler terms.

    I'm trying to find a way that works and am having luck with PB, with less fruit than I started out with. I would like to understand why it's working. Right now Taubes book is making a lot of sense but, like I said, I am no scientist.

    This is the first in my life I've found things claiming facts other than conventional wisdom and it makes sense that conventional wisdom isn't working because, obviously, we're all becoming fat or obese but within this new idea there are tons of viewpoints and it's very confusing for me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus0 View Post
    I was very curious so I tried to read through these articles but I really couldn't understand much of them so I wonder if you could explain them in simpler terms.

    I'm trying to find a way that works and am having luck with PB, with less fruit than I started out with. I would like to understand why it's working. Right now Taubes book is making a lot of sense but, like I said, I am no scientist.

    This is the first in my life I've found things claiming facts other than conventional wisdom and it makes sense that conventional wisdom isn't working because, obviously, we're all becoming fat or obese but within this new idea there are tons of viewpoints and it's very confusing for me.
    Put as simply as possible:

    Gary Taubes ignores the vast majority of lean people who live on carbs as a primary source of energy. He also ignores the several other more prominent blood sugar regulation factors such as cortisol, growth hormone, and probably the biggest, potassium. What is seen as insulin activity is only accounted for partly by actual insulin.
    Time is passing so quickly. Right now, I feel like complaining to Einstein. Whether time is slow or fast depends on perception. Relativity theory is so romantic. And so sad.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_walrus0 View Post
    I was very curious so I tried to read through these articles but I really couldn't understand much of them so I wonder if you could explain them in simpler terms.

    I'm trying to find a way that works and am having luck with PB, with less fruit than I started out with. I would like to understand why it's working. Right now Taubes book is making a lot of sense but, like I said, I am no scientist.

    This is the first in my life I've found things claiming facts other than conventional wisdom and it makes sense that conventional wisdom isn't working because, obviously, we're all becoming fat or obese but within this new idea there are tons of viewpoints and it's very confusing for me.
    I don't remember what all is in there. I'm not able to view all of them right now because my Adobe Reader doesn't work too well, but I included studies that seem to counter the main points of his theory. Basically he claims (or claimed, I don't know where his beliefs lie these days) that eating carbohydrates stimulates the release of insulin, which if done too often induces insulin resistance and hyperinsulinemia (too much insulin in the blood) in addition to making you fat and harming your liver/raising your triglycerides.

    One of the studies discusses how the great majority of liver fat in a fatty liver comes from free fatty acids rather than fatty acids created through de novo lipogenesis (making fat from carbohydrates). A couple of them show substantial DNL doesn't really kick in until glycogen stores (carbohydrate storage in our muscles and liver) are full, and it contributes very little to body fat once it does. But that can generally be avoided (probably never entirely, but that's not a bad thing) by exercising. There's an overfeeding study in there showing excess fat is stored more efficiently than carbohydrates (DNL requires more energy, so less is stored). Two of the studies I included simply for a few choice lines. This is one of them:

    It is important to recognize, however, that DNL still contributed a small fraction of total adipose TG storage in the free-living subjects studied here, even with the higher estimates here from the 2H2O method. Nonessential FA represent about one-half of stored adipose FA. If 20% of nonessential FA come from DNL, ∼10% of total stored FA derive from DNL. This contrasts with rodents, where long-term 2H2O administration results in up to 70% of palmitate deriving from the DNL pathway in animals on low-fat diets.
    That's important because you read a lot about rats in Good Calories, Bad Calories. Whether he was aware of the significant species-specific effect of DNL when writing the book I can't say, but it's important to know there is a difference. The last study also discusses species-specific rates of DNL near the bottom.

    There's another study discussing the role of DNL in the formation and clearance of VLDL, which is there to ease general paranoia about carbohydrates raising triglycerides.

    Earlier today I was looking for a good study to put in there about lipotoxicity resulting from increased free fatty acids causing beta cell dysfunction (diabetes), which is relevant to his theory for two reasons. First, he claims elevated insulin traps fatty acids inside cells, yet the obese typically have higher levels of FFAs. The two ideas aren't compatible. Second, there's been research demonstrating FFAs can damage beta cells and are important in the development of diabetes. That counters the claim that after a while your pancreas just gets sick of making insulin and goes on worker's strike, leading to diabetes. I haven't been able to find anything in the literature to debunk that idea because, frankly, it's a silly low carb myth.

    I... think that about covers it. I came away from the book thinking eating any amount of carbohydrates would cause insulin to store them as fat and hurt my weight loss efforts, but it's not true. It took a fairly extensive amount of un-brainwashing to get where I am now. Carbohydrates don't contribute the most to stored body fat, they don't give you diabetes, and they don't cause insulin to lock fat away never to be used again.

    Again, this isn't to dissaude you from trying a low carb diet. They're good for quick weight loss and ketosis (generally) feels really good. I just don't think it's something that should necessarily be sustained forever, and it absolutely does not work the way Gary Taubes describes in his books.

    I hope any of that makes sense. I'm open to clarifications or corrections (articles by Gary Taubes don't count).
    Endotoxins (under construction)


  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by itchy166 View Post
    I probably shouldn't do this since you are very close minded on the subject and you really like to confuse people, but



    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/17/ma...anted=all&_r=0


    Respect!

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