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  1. #311
    Omni's Avatar
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    I went for a bit of a search looking for the BMI of "Venus De Milo", no success on that front, but did find some interesting stuff.

    Elsie Scheel, a 24-year-old pronounced the "perfect woman" in 1912, she was 5' 7" and 171 lb's, BMI of 27, lived to 91, never sick.
    "Perfect Woman" Weighed 171 Pounds | Healthy Living - Yahoo! Shine

    Then stumbled on the "Obesity Paradox", meta analysis found overweight and slightly obese individuals have a reduced mortality risk.
    However, being merely overweight (BMI 25-30) was linked to a 6 percent decreased risk of death compared to a normal weight person, while being slightly (grade 1) obese (BMI 30-35) was linked to a 5 percent lower risk.
    So being correct BMI indicates increased mortality risk.
    More evidence for "obesity paradox" - Yahoo! News
    Lively Dust: Weight is a red herring

    And another pdf file, slide images like powerpoint, discussing similar questions about BMI through history and the "Obesity" Epidemic.
    http://anthropology.ua.edu/bindon/an...cs/obesity.pdf

    The whole BMI thing sounds a bit like the cholesterol myth, being normal range indicates higher mortality risk.

  2. #312
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    A more detailed breakdown of the obesity paradox and BMI from Chris Kressor.
    Do fat people live longer?
    If you’re a metabolically healthy person with a few extrapounds that just won’t budge, current evidence suggests that getting to your “perfect” weight may not increase your lifespan. In fact, if you’re a woman, it may even be counterproductive.. I This casts doubt – at least from a scientific perspective — on our culture’s (pathological?) obsession with skinniness. It also suggests that maintaining adequate lean body mass by eating a nutrient-dense diet and doing regular weight-bearing exercise may be more important than shaving off those final few pounds of fat.
    So more important to build the actual lean body mass(muscle) than than it is to lose that bit of extra fat so the muscle is becomes visible outwardly
    and this seems to be the place meny get stuck, once they try to lose the last bit of fat they also start to lose the muscle, but if they let the fat back on it is easier to build the muscle and they feel stronger and can lift more.
    Last edited by Omni; 03-13-2013 at 05:17 AM.

  3. #313
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    If you haven't been eating any gluten, then the biopsy is pointless - even if you were celiac, it wouldn't show anything as the gut damage would have healed already, if there was any there before. Blood test for celiac is often unreliable.

    You could put yourself through a gluten challenge, and have the biopsy, which involves eating gluten for a minimum of 6 weeks, in order to deliberately damage your gut so it shows up. Been there, and it wasn't pleasant, I can tell you. If you're happy Paleo and gluten free, then I'd honestly say don't bother with the biopsy, as what you will have to put yourself through for it would be far far worse than the actual biopsy, if you do have celiac or a gluten allergy or sensitivity. After a period of time off gluten and then reintroducing it, you will be sick as a dog quite quickly if you do have some sort of gluten disorder, and you then have to keep that up for almost two months. Two months of being sick feels like a long time, and then there's the time afterwards for you to heal from it.

    I had atypical symptoms as well, mainly joint pain, weight gain and constipation (sorry TMI) which doesn't fit the typical picture. I went on several elimination diets to try and determine if I had any food intolerances or allergies, and the most improvement was when I was off gluten, prompting them to give me a celiac test. Blood test was negative initially after a month off gluten, but then I had a positive blood test and biopsy after the gluten challenge, but paid a very high price for it, as the symptoms kicked in far worse than they were before. Took 6 months for me to recover from those 2 months of hell.

    Biopsy itself - I was horrendously nervous before, but they sedated me to the eyeballs and I don't remember anything about it.

    You can be gluten-sensitive without being celiac - gluten sensitivity can cause leaky gut, which also causes malabsorption. A biopsy won't pick that up, but it could pick up other signs of absorption problems - as well as celiac, mine showed GERD/acid reflux damage, and going Primal has fixed that. So I'd say have it if you want to rule out general gastric issues, but not solely for a celiac diagnosis.
    Last edited by PaleoPanda; 03-13-2013 at 05:52 AM.

  4. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    Yeah... I'm experiencing something similar. The difference in my hips between when I'm starving myself and eating 2500-3000K a day of good food is max two inches (I don't weigh myself). And actually it's probably working out better, cos' I cant sustain it when I starve - i just end up binging on shit food, putting on weight, then being depressed and sedentary. Similarly, when I'm eating this much I actually want to exercise.

    The more I'm turning this over in my head, the more it makes sense. I'm sick of the yo-yo weight and not being able to eat to my appetite. It's not a way to live. The minimal extra weight is worth it (although I have a strong suspicion that if I keep going with this I'll lose some of it wthout trying. Think it's already happening...)
    Yep, the more you focus on rehabing your body with sleep, stress management, exercise and lots of nurishing food and easier it will be to lose fat when your body is ready. Like i said earlier, i actually gained fat on a low carb diet intended for fat loss, lost a little when i was stuffing myself more months and now i am leaning out under 10% bf while eating a diet of 60% carbs and lots of not so great foods (french toast, pizza, pancakes).

    I do think it takes a bit of experimenting to find whats right but it is certainly possible.
    Last edited by Zach; 03-13-2013 at 06:56 AM.

  5. #315
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    @ Yogabare - how long have you been doing this now?

  6. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    Yeah... I'm experiencing something similar. The difference in my hips between when I'm starving myself and eating 2500-3000K a day of good food is max two inches (I don't weigh myself). And actually it's probably working out better, cos' I cant sustain it when I starve - i just end up binging on shit food, putting on weight, then being depressed and sedentary. Similarly, when I'm eating this much I actually want to exercise.

    The more I'm turning this over in my head, the more it makes sense. I'm sick of the yo-yo weight and not being able to eat to my appetite. It's not a way to live. The minimal extra weight is worth it (although I have a strong suspicion that if I keep going with this I'll lose some of it wthout trying. Think it's already happening...)
    This.... It becomes a binge/starve kind of thing for me too and it's just generally mentally and emotionally unhealthy. I'll take the extra couple of inches and keep my sanity.

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaleoMom View Post
    @ Yogabare - how long have you been doing this now?
    Hey PaleoMom,

    I've been experimenting with it since November. It started as an intuitive realisation that I was "doing it wrong". I started VLC Primal last April at 19% bf, dropped to probably 18%, but after a month I completely lost control of my eating and a dormant ED flared up. I continued with VLC Primal. By November I was a mess. I had gained about 10 lbs and I felt like crap. At that point I realised I needed to do something different, so I started stuffing myself with nutrient dense food, three times a day, and started eating beetroot and squash to get more carbs. I didn't binge for a month, then lost patience because I wasn't loosing weight and starved myself for a week. The weight literally flew off me. But then I binged and put it all back on. This was so disheartening.

    I had taken a break from posting on MDA but at that point I had returned and I saw posts from Zach and Derp. I found their perspective interesting cos it was something quite new. I started PMing with both of them and they got me on to Matt Stone. Then I did something drastic and I followed the Matt Stone junk food protocol. For a month, I ate whatever I wanted. Cookies for breakfast, camarmel slices for my elevenses, ice cream whenever I wanted, lots of nutella, and kit kat chunkies. In addition I started eating potatoes, rice and dairy again, and kept eating loads of nuts, meat etc. Though most of the time I was too stuffed with crap to fit much good food in!

    Anyway, after a month I was unbelievably depressed, had no energy, and felt like total shit. I ODed on junk food. The irony is that I probably only put on another inch around my hips and had gone up another 5lbs . I stopped binging and I started eating proper food, to satiation point. My measurements didn't change. After a while of doing this, I felt warmer, started having more energy and began exercising more. I naturally started cycling calories and my weight started to drop. I also cut back on dairy as I had gotten addicted to it...! I dropped about an inch in my hips.

    However, this was actually bad news for me as well because I started counting my calories and macros and got too into making sure I was eating less and less on my "low calorie" days. By cutting dairy I had also cut out another food group - one that I really like. As if by magic, what happened? Yip, I binged. First time in two months. Of course, due to the epic nature of my binges, I put that inch back on

    After the binge I started reading this thread and it's been incredibly inspiring to me. i have to stop this madness. I can't live like this anymore, binging, starving, counting calories etc. So in the last week I've just again been eating really nutrient dense food (mostly bone broth) - lots of carbs, lots of fat, lots of protein. Every day. And started taking supplements. I'm estimating that Im at around 2,500 - 3,000 cals a day (i'm not counting anymore) and I've been sleeping really well.

    This morning I got a shock cos' I measured myself and the inch I'd gained back was gone. I weighed myself and I've dropped 7 lbs! To be fair I hadnt weighed myself in a while and I could have lost muscle so I don't take the scales too seriously. But the meaurement tape doesn't like. I don't know if this is the eating or maybe that my dairy consumption is more moderate now? I live in a perpetual state of bloatedness, so it's not that.

    Anyway, I have the deep intuitive feeling that this is the right way of doing things. Keep going with it! I will too. It is so so liberating to think that I don't have to skip meals anymore or go to bed hungry.

    You know what really interesting too? I started Primal reading Taubes who said calories don't matter. Then I started reading teh MDA forum that said they did (the current thread on it is a wonderful example). Now I'm starting to think again that there's something else to it. Don't know what it is. Maybe it's that when I eat all this gorgeous food to satiation point, I'm giving my body the signal that I love and respect it which makes me feel free, and reduces stress. I usually suffer from insomnia, so the deep sleep is amazing.

    Phew, long post!
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  8. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zach View Post
    Yep, the more you focus on rehabing your body with sleep, stress management, exercise and lots of nurishing food and easier it will be to lose fat when your body is ready. Like i said earlier, i actually gained fat on a low carb diet intended for fat loss, lost a little when i was stuffing myself more months and now i am leaning out under 10% bf while eating a diet of 60% carbs and lots of not so great foods (french toast, pizza, pancakes).

    I do think it takes a bit of experimenting to find whats right but it is certainly possible.
    I'm incredibly grateful to yourself and Derp's contribution to MDA. I learned that my health is more dependent on getting rid of food phobias than eliminating food groups.

    Edit: Actually, I have to give credit where credit due. Primal eating has been amazing for me too. It's taught me to really tune in with my body. I've learned that wheat, legumes, and too much fibre really hurts me. I seem to have a very sensitive stomach. So now I really listen to how I respond to certain food, and a bad response puts me off that food. (I've learned that pure sugar is innocuous for me... thanks Danny Roddy!)
    Last edited by YogaBare; 03-13-2013 at 11:48 AM.
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

  9. #319
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    YogaBare,

    Thanks for sharing all of that. Sounds like it is really working great for you!

    I'm especially needing to read stories like yours this morning. I just started my period yesterday and was at an all time high weight/measurements. Pretty close to the same today. I know it has only been a bit over two weeks which doesn't sound like much written down, but being in the middle of it feels like it is forever! I haven't eaten freely like this since I was 10 though, so no quick changes can be expected. My temp does seem great though. Yesterday it did the menstration drop down to 98.1, but today is right back up to 98.5 again. I'm please with that and my energy is up a bit today. Since yesterday my appetite has gone down quite a bit but I have kept above 2500 anyway.

  10. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by YogaBare View Post
    You know what really interesting too? I started Primal reading Taubes who said calories don't matter. Then I started reading teh MDA forum that said they did (the current thread on it is a wonderful example). Now I'm starting to think again that there's something else to it. Don't know what it is. Maybe it's that when I eat all this gorgeous food to satiation point, I'm giving my body the signal that I love and respect it which makes me feel free, and reduces stress. I usually suffer from insomnia, so the deep sleep is amazing.
    I've been going back to old books too I really did read things with a calorie restriction filter on the whole time. I was looking at The Smarter Science of Slim again and realizing the whole point of the book was that calories don't matter and I still didn't notice it! There is also the Gabriel Method, Taubes of course and most of the paleo books, they all focus on eating good food and not worrying about how much. My trouble comes in when they say things about how a person will naturally eat less food this way or other similar comments. Once I read that, then I read the rest of the book with the notion that others who eat nothing but garbage can switch over and lose by not counting calories, but I gain at 1200 so that part of the advice doesn't apply to me. So, I would go right along restricting calories.

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